why enter a cave

[MMM]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Some posts that were becoming quite rude have been deleted and/or edited. Please remember that this is a "flame free zone" requiring respect and courtesy at all times. If you can't answer questions raised in a pleasant manner, then please step away from the keyboard. Marg, ScubaBoard moderator

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[MXGratefulDiver]

When people keep jumping off a bridge you put up fences so they can't. Yeah, it costs something, but it saves lives. When 3-wheel ATVs keep flipping and hurting people, you ban their sale. Yeah, it interferes with some people having fun, but it saves lives. If you are serious about protecting lives, and you know of an especially unsafe situation people can enter unaware, you have an ethical obligation to correct that situation. Signs obviously ain't cutting it.

Would you be in favor then of blowing up the Grand Canyon? After all, people die there every year.

How about we kill all the bison in Yellowstone? After all, every year some fool ignores the warnings and attempts to get a picture just a little too close to one and ends up as a fatality.

What say we dynamite El Capitan ... to keep all those rock climbers safe?

Destroying or blocking access to natural wonders isn't a solution to the actions of fools ... that's what Darwin Awards are for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post Merged at 05:30 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:26 AM ----------

That would be reasonable IF all types of diving had equal risk. If there are safe and legitimate uses, on the other hand, it is more reasonable to block only the specific activities and areas that are unsafe.

But all types of diving DO have equal risk ... if you're been properly trained to do that type of diving.

Doing a simple, 50-foot reef dive is incredibly unsafe if the diver has never been trained to dive in that environment.

Diving in overheads has exactly the same risk. For the properly trained ... who observes the rules gained during that training ... there isn't really all that much risk in cave diving. For those who think that an open water certification somehow qualifies them to enter an overhead environment, it's incredibly unsafe.

That, really, is the message that those who are qualified to make that judgment have been trying to say in this thread ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Them]

Would you be in favor then of blowing up the Grand Canyon? After all, people die there every year.

How about we kill all the bison in Yellowstone? After all, every year some fool ignores the warnings and attempts to get a picture just a little too close to one and ends up as a fatality.

What say we dynamite El Capitan ... to keep all those rock climbers safe?

Destroying or blocking access to natural wonders isn't a solution to the actions of fools ... that's what Darwin Awards are for.

Personally I think doing any of those things is, or should be, a crime.

But if you know something is an Attractive Nuisance, and an extraordinary risk, isn't the modern argument that doing nothing is a bigger crime? It's certainly the argument against smoking, guns, et cetera. You weight the possible gain from good uses against the possible harm and make a dispassionate and reasoned decision.

But all types of diving DO have equal risk ... if you're been properly trained to do that type of diving.

No, they have different types and levels of risk. Training and other preparation allow you to mitigate some of those risks, but the fact is that the same mistake that will set you on the bottom of a swimming pool will cause a potentially disastrous event in many other environments. To call that the same risk isn't accurate.

They may both be equally SAFE for properly prepared people, but they do not have equal risk. That's why we (me on one end of the path, others wherever they are) get training and prepare in other ways.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But if you know something is an Attractive Nuisance, and an extraordinary risk, isn't the modern argument that doing nothing is a bigger crime? It's certainly the argument against smoking, guns, et cetera. You weight the possible gain from good uses against the possible harm and make a dispassionate and reasoned decision.

I guess that depends entirely on the person's point of view. I'm not a big fan of protecting people from themselves. I'm a fan of taking responsibility for your actions and decisions. It's one of the things that attracts me to diving ... we're all expected to take responsibility for ourselves. Proper training teaches you how ... and every different environment you can expose yourself to requires specific training to know how to make responsible choices.

We don't train for what goes right ... when everything goes right, diving is very simple ... even in a cave. We train for what goes wrong ... and every environment will pose different situations that you're expected to know how to deal with.

No, they have different types and levels of risk. Training and other preparation allow you to mitigate some of those risks, but the fact is that the same mistake that will set you on the bottom of a swimming pool will cause a potentially disastrous event in many other environments. To call that the same risk isn't accurate.

They may both be equally SAFE for properly prepared people, but they do not have equal risk. That's why we (me on one end of the path, others wherever they are) get training and prepare in other ways.

I stand corrected. You are right, of course. I fell into the trap of equating risk with safe.

There is an assumption among non-cavers that cave diving is inherently unsafe. It is not. For the properly trained and responsible cave diver it is no less safe than open water diving. The training teaches you how to understand, recognize, and mitigate the risks ... and that information is what makes cave diving relatively safe for the person who gets the training and understands now to deal with the risks.

Not knowing those things is what makes cave diving unsafe ... and that is the whole point of this conversation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

My own risk analysis tells me it's ok for me to dive open water, under the ice, on and inside wrecks, in blackwater, and in current. And I if choose to do so, solo, in all of those environments. This is based on my level of knowledge, skills, training, my experience in those environments, and my own acceptance of what the results may be if something goes wrong. Those are the conditions I have set on myself. At the same time I recognize, based on those same levels that some situations within those parameters are beyond my capabilites for now and so I don't go there.

I'm not ready for the Doria, under the ice in Antarctica untethered, in blackwater filled with gators, and in whitewater rapids. Those assesments are based on the knowledge I have gained through training that, as others have noted, lets me know just how much I don't yet know. This is one of the fundamental problems I see in Open Water training. The amount of information given new divers is considerable. More in some cases than others based on the course and instructor chosen.

What is not effectively conveyed is just what they don't know, and the actual consequences of that lack of knowledge. I stated in an earlier post that my own training seemed to be contradicted as far as overheads went by the actions of the instructor who pushed the enjoyment of entering an overhead for the first time, at night, in a new spot. And for teasing us with the looks into the system. Had he then showed us photos of dead divers being brought out of that system, their faces contorted in agony and fear, fingers shredded from trying to claw their way through several hundred feet of rock, and the faces of their grieving wives, children, and families, it may have had more of an impact and sent a clearer message.

Instead this was not done, and so until I actually got on here and then got into some tech training I blissfully went on thinking that all of that was ok, and the dangers were not really apparent. It was the old "that happens to someone else" not me feeling. But when that starts to sink in, and it was helped by my tech instruction, it starts to come into one's mind that those dangers are real and that they could very well be me, if I don't do what is necessary to avoid or get trained for them.

Dynamiting caves, closing access to land, prohibiting mooring on a wreck or closing it to divers is not the answer. Education is the key and it is not hard to do. It makes the job of the instructor easier in fact. In my case I show the video " A Deceptively Easy Way to Die", I show photos of divers who have died doing stupid things. I graphically explain what happens when you run out of air in an overhead. I graphically explain the effects of an AGE, ruptured lung, the bends, etc so that it is crystal clear that this is serious stuff. Some say that this scares new divers. Well duh! It is supposed to.

I am waiting to get my copy of "Ben's Vortex" and anticipate using it in classes for effect. Like Bob I do not believe in protecting stupid people from doing stupid things. That only thins the gene pool and makes it better. I do believe in educating people in clear, graphic, and honest terms so that they do not act like stupid people. The recent actions of the instructor who led his own kids into a cave and had to have Ed Sorenson come and keep the man's daughter from now laying in a coffin, is an example of what a lack of education results in. Why should that system, or any system, be closed because of the actions of one uninformed, uneducated (not stupid- just sufficiently ignorant of facts), and judgmentally challenged individual? There is no good reason for it. The cave did not reach out and drag them in. The cave did not decide to toss out a huge silt cloud. The divers by their actions created those conditions and they should be the ones punished for it.

The kids are being punished I think. Mentally they will have to find a way to deal with the fact that their dad nearly killed them. After being warned. He still led them in instead of using it as an occaision to teach a valuable lesson in humility and judgment.

In my opinion, his ego got in the way. That makes him dangerous as an instructor and for that alone he should have his card yanked. He put divers at risk by leading them into an environment specifically prohibited by every agency I am aware of for open water divers. Doesn't matter that he was not teaching a class. In fact that makes it worse. Professionals are supposed to be role models all the time.

He led divers into a situation that presented the near certain risk of death without regard for it. That is IMO, unforgiveable.

 

[srhein]

My first trip to Florida to dive the springs I had about 10 open water dives. I most certainly didn't know what I didn't know. My second trip a year later I was a seasoned veteran of maybe 50 dives, and I still was clueless and doing "trust me" dives with my more experienced buddies. At Ginnie we dropped down into the Eye just as some full cave divers were approaching the exit. Of course, we didn't have lights, but their lights lit up the last 30 feet of that cave. I was fascinated! Other than a little more equipment, and better skills, and more training, they looked exactly like me!
I tend to follow rules, so I wasn't tempted to enter the cave system, well, not very much anyway. Later on that trip my instructor managed to get in behind the warning signs at Devil's Den by following some swim-throughs and cracks. I found out later that he ended up someplace he had to turn around, ascend and find his way out. In the process he silted out the space, with less than 500 psi in his tank. I had been swimming above him, watching him pull himself into openings that I would never have considered.
At this point I had lost sight of him, and in reality there would have been nothing I could have done anyway. He managed to bumble his way out, and didn't tell us what happened until long after the trip.
I think there is a natural draw to whatever is beyond the curve, over the hill, or into that alluring cave (or wreck.) Signs don't do it, a few minutes in OW training when most students have no idea what they are even talking about won't do it. Reading about body recoveries, reading the poignant stories from the survivors and family members after some tragedy, and reading about something like the rescue at Twin by Edd is enough to convince me.

 

[ryanlala]

WOW!!! Them, has a lot of smarts and experience for an open water diver with less than 25 dives. I too fly them little things in the air with wings and a motor that makes noise, but even this tard knows when to keep my butt on the grass and not fly my kite, especially when one of them with experience well beyond on mine says its not a good day to fly. Eyes almost forgot to tell you I have one of those fancy cave divers cards that allows me to go into some dark wet hole, even alone! I even splurged the money for that proper learning so I could do it safe. I rarely post my thinking thoughts on the interwebs cause i'm too busy diving, and people just seem to make a fool of them self.

:classic::fail:

 

[kotik]

Personally I think doing any of those things is, or should be, a crime.

But if you know something is an Attractive Nuisance, and an extraordinary risk, isn't the modern argument that doing nothing is a bigger crime? It's certainly the argument against smoking, guns, et cetera. You weight the possible gain from good uses against the possible harm and make a dispassionate and reasoned decision.

I will try a different tack.

Them:

What I, a novice cave diver would like, is to be able to continue practicing the thing I love to do. I suspect I could speak for most if not all of my fellows that if you peel away all the nice patina, it would come down to this one very selfish thing. We don't want people killing themselves in caves, mainly because history has shown that frequent deaths in caves lead to closures and yes, sometimes destruction. Beyond the risk of being shut down, we don't want it, possibly more because having a body in there would be unpleasant, rather than true concern for someone we didn't know and couldn't stop from doing something stupid.

So, with the ultimate goal in mind of not being shut out of the caves and not having them blown up, I'm ready to do what it takes to accomplish that. If this means that thumping my chest and dispassionately berating people on a forum is the thing to do because a public display of passion is expected, then so be it. If calmly reasoning with people is the better approach, I'm ready to try my darndest. Utter silence, never talking about it at all? If that works, then mum's the word. If kicking the crap out of a man in front of his kids before he can lead them to their doom is the answer, then... yep, I think I'd be willing to fight over it, I'd consider it service to my community if that's what works.

Do you think our response is inappropriate or less than optimum at achieving this goal? Do you have an idea for a more effective way for us to behave, for activism we might undertake, or just when to keep quiet that might be more effective at decreasing deaths, or at least ensure continued diving access in spite of deaths? If you have some suggestion, some wisdom you're hoping to impart, I for one am willing to listen to what you want to say.

Blowing up caves is not acceptable, if that's the punch line your posts have been leading up to then I say your only point has been to inflame people, and damn you as a troll. If not, do you have a solution to suggest?

---------- Post Merged at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:28 PM ----------

I rarely post my thinking thoughts on the interwebs cause i'm too busy diving, and people just seem to make a fool of them self.

I hear you, and I promise that if nothing worth bothering with comes of this last attempt, I will shut up.

--- Edit ---
To the Board in general-- out of curiosity about user "Them", I've browsed over some of the posts he's made since joining. I don't believe he's just here to troll. I'm still not exactly sure what the upshot is of the posts to this thread.

 

[AaronRiot]

I stand corrected. You are right, of course. I fell into the trap of equating risk with safe.

There is an assumption among non-cavers that cave diving is inherently unsafe. It is not. For the properly trained and responsible cave diver it is no less safe than open water diving. The training teaches you how to understand, recognize, and mitigate the risks ... and that information is what makes cave diving relatively safe for the person who gets the training and understands now to deal with the risks.

Not knowing those things is what makes cave diving unsafe ... and that is the whole point of this conversation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Really?

I would strongly disagree. There are in fact many more dangers in an overhead than in OW. So yes, it is definitely less-safe, even if you're properly trained.

And frankly, not knowing just puts one at a far greater disadvantage.

 

[SkimFisher]

Really?

I would strongly disagree. There are in fact many more dangers in an overhead than in OW. So yes, it is definitely less-safe, even if you're properly trained.

And frankly, not knowing just puts one at a far greater disadvantage.

I really don't agree with that.

Read the accident reports. 99% of them have had one or more rules violated. These rules are as easy to follow and understand as "look both ways before crossing the street". The human element is what makes it dangerous, not the environment.