why enter a cave

[Cave Diver]

My simple question, is what is in there that is so worth it? I've seen lots of beautiful stalagmites and stalactites with air. Scuba diving exposes us to reefs, topical fish and sea life or fresh water environments and cool wrecks. What's in caves that's so different or important to justify the added risk?

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/332057-how-i-started-why-i-continue-cave-dive.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/425490-why-do-divers-cave-dive.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/11189-why-i-became-cave-diver.html

 

[AaronRiot]

No, we don't. To split hairs, I don't believe that a fully trained and experienced cave diver is under any disadvantage in a cave environment. If risks are mitigated, then they are mitigated... they are inapplicable.

Me: "And frankly, not knowing just puts one at a far greater disadvantage." See we agree just a little different wording

.........not knowing as in not being trained to do the activity, so if you're not trained risks are not mitigated right? And that would screw you in an activity where those risks exist.

True, but some posts on this very thread serve to illustrate that obvious concepts are beyond some people...

I'll agree to the generalization without even taking into account any of the posts on this thread, or for that matter even the topic...but if you'd like to back it up with a quote or post # go right ahead since you've mentioned it...

Protocols exist to guard against human errors. Precision dive planning, redundancy of equipment, team mentality etc etc. Those protocols are rarely seen in OW environments (except by those cave/overhead trained divers, when they enjoy an OW dive).

Are you saying cave/overhead divers are the only divers that make a plan ahead of time for the dive, make sure they have gas redundancy like a good buddy and proper gas management, did I mention a good buddy? I think that's team mentality right? Maybe I'm wrong... I would also venture a guess that some of these overhead/cave etc divers may not follow all these guidelines every time when enjoying an easy OW dive.

The fact that an Open Water environment is more forgiving of errors than an overhead environment, is only relevant as a comparison based upon the expected frequency and nature of errors made.

There is always a 'chain' of circumstances and errors that needs to exist before a dive becomes a terminal accident. In Open Water, that chain generally needs to be 3, or more, steps long. In an overhead/virtual overhead environment it can be 1 step long. These, again, are unmitigated factors.

In either environment, the mitigation of risks serves to lengthen the 'chain', creating more points of resolution.

A fully trained, experienced and equipped cave diver in overhead could have more chance of resolution, than a sloppy, ill-disciplined open water diver in the ocean.

Who said anything about the OW diver being unskilled and undisciplined at what they do?

The point was a trained caver in a cave is just as safe as a trained OW in OW. I happened to disagree, because, there are more things that can go wrong, more mistakes can be made, and as you said when the mistakes are made the environment is less forgiving. If everything went perfect every single time no one would get hurt right?

The complexity of the environment is immaterial, if protocols exist and are followed. If an individual is disinclined to adhere to taught procedures and recommendations, then they will endanger themselves regardless of the environment in which they dive.

Training, equipment, procedures and protocols have to match the environment. Without doubt, diving in an overhead environment is a more complex and demanding task. It is necessary to be a more capable diver to match that. However, to consider the 'danger' of that environment, one has to also consider the factors available to safeguard the diver. In addition to procedures, protocols, equipment and training considerations, the simple fact that cave divers develop a distinct mentality. A much higher degree of focus and precision. A risk averse, meticulous approach.

The first bit I agree with, but, personally see that when there is more complexity there is more danger because there are more things that can go wrong, there are protocols etc. I'm sure, but people still die right?

What I've bolded.....I believe that discipline such as you've mentioned is more of an individual thing. Just my personal opinion from what I've seen out there in the world in general. You can be trained to adhere to such things, but I think that the state of mind is in you or it is not. I would venture a guess that not all cave divers have followed this mentality over the years. Just as I would guess that there are a good number of simple OW divers who are very meticulous and set in their ways..

For those unused to the diving at a high level, it is easy to misconstrue cave divers as risk-takers, wheras in fact they are, to an order of magnitude, far more risk averse than divers who operate at lower levels.

Who said "risk-taker"? My point was that if you put the two activities on a 'danger scale' of say 1-100 the overhead will rank higher. You don't think so? If we took all the (trained) overhead fatalities/ overhead dives compared to (trained) OW fatalities / OW dives I wonder if we'd see a similar fraction? Honest question, no sarcasm, it would be an interesting figure I suspect.

 

[TSandM]

Cave divers have, historically, been very introspective about their branch of the sport. In fact, it is difficult to find ANY fatality involving a trained cave diver who did not break at least one of the cardinal rules of cave diving. If you follow them, the sport is really amazingly safe.

Why does anybody do something you could die doing? Ask the rock climbers, and the skydivers, and the bronc riders, and the motocross racers, and the Formula 1 race car drivers. People like to do things that are difficult and challenging. I think most cave divers like the preparation, the planning, and the careful execution of the dives as an integral part of what's fun about cave diving. I don't think about dying when I swim into a cave. I think about being careful.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I don't know anyone who does it for a challenge. Its not difficult, all the gear prep is what most of us hates that I dive with. Its a necessary evil at best. We love the geology, the millions if years of history, the art the water has carved and going into places nobody else has gone, and most never will. My only dive plan is to have fun, not coming back is not an option.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I have yet to hear what people think they get from cave diving that justifies the added risk? What percentage of all scuba deaths are cave dives? I bet it's high. My simple question, is what is in there that is so worth it?

What added risk? While cave diving is potentially very lethal to a non-cave trained diver, you need to get over the misconception that cave diving is a risky behavior for a properly trained and prudent cave diver.

As for the percentages of diving deaths, you'd lose that bet.

Let's look at a few facts: (American Cave Diving Fatalities 1969-2007, Peter L. Buzzacott, Erin Zeigler, Petar Denoble,and Richard Vann, 2009)

1) There were 368 cave fatalities from 1969-2007

2) Of those 368, 74 were known to have cave training (only 20%) while 208 did not have cave training (57%) and the level of training could not be determined for 23% of the victims.

3) Of the 368 fatalities, 329 (90%) occurred in the US.

4) The number of cave fatalities has declined dramatically during this period, from a record high of 35 in 1974 to an average of only 4.4 per year from 2003-2007.

5) Looking at the last 5 years for which data is available -
The year, number of cave diving deaths, and percent who were cave trained:

2003, 8, 62%
2004, 8, 75%
2005, 2, 100%
2006, 3, 100%
2007, 1, 100%

Total = 22 , 17 with cave training

-----

Now, if we take the total cave diving deaths over the last 5 years, multiplied by 90% to estimate cave diving accidents that occur in the US and compare that with the DAN statistics for US diving fatalities over the same period, we get an interesting percentage:

90% (to estimate US cave diving deaths) = 19.8, 15.3 with cave training

DAN stats for US diving deaths -
Year, number

2003, 89
2004, 88
2005, 89
2006, 75
2007, 116

Total = 457

19.8/457 = .0433

Percentage of cave diving deaths to all diving deaths = 4.3%

And;

15.3/457 = .0334

Percentage of cave diving deaths among divers with cave training, compared to all diving deaths = 3.3%

-----

What we can't really tell from the data is how many cave divers are out there versus how many non cave trained recreational divers are out there. If cave divers are less than 3.3% of the total diving population then they are in fact over-represented in the fatalities.

However, the article above also discusses the reasons for fatal accidents among trained divers. 84% involved breaking gas planning rules with another 56% not running a continuous guideline to the surface, and those two reasons accounted for almost all the fatal accidents.

Consequently, even if cave divers as a population are over represented, the fatalities among cave trained divers primarily occur in cave divers who break one or both of the established rules mentioned above. A prudent cave diver who does conservative gas planning and runs a continuous guideline is unlikely to ever die in a cave diving accident. That again speaks directly to the risk mitigation discussion in some of the previous posts.

In all seriousness, the biggest risk I take in cave diving is the drive south from NC to FL on I-95.

 

[JamesK]

One other stat you would need to look at is not what the percentage/ratio of cave divers to ow divers is, but what is the percentage of actual dives done yearly as it pertains to cave dives vs ow dives. This is a stat I am sure we could never get.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This is my point Even the best trained anything can make a mistake. Overhead you're likely done as you said, and OW maybe you'll make it up in one piece with a slap on the wrist. So, to equate trained OW diving to trained overhead diving seems ridiculous. To me at least. Because as you said, there are more risks to mitigate, and more things to go wrong.

... perhaps you can explain that to Wes Skiles ... or his widow ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ianr33]

5) Looking at the last 5 years for which data is available -
The year, number of cave diving deaths, and percent who were cave trained:

2003, 8, 62%
2004, 8, 75%
2005, 2, 100%
2006, 3, 100%
2007, 1, 100%

Total = 22 , 17 with cave training

Not sure I have much confidence in those figures. e.g. a non cave trained diver died at JB in 2007
U.S. Cavers Forum - Diver Fatality at Blue Springs

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Not sure I have much confidence in those figures. e.g. a non cave trained diver died at JB in 2007
U.S. Cavers Forum - Diver Fatality at Blue Springs

You can double the numbers and it won't change the over all conclusion, especially with regard to trained cave divers.

 

[Them]

I hope you all got wet and had fun this weekend. I did.

To the Board in general-- out of curiosity about user "Them", I've browsed over some of the posts he's made since joining. I don't believe he's just here to troll. I'm still not exactly sure what the upshot is of the posts to this thread.

I didn't see much point in rehashing most of this thread, but I thought I'd offer my opinion here.

I suspect this whole thing boils down to the fact that people tend to assume that others are basically like them. Drop into poppsych talk and call it projection if you like, but it happens and in cases like this can lead to extreme miscommunication.

I my case I am by nature extremely risk averse, to the point of a sort of cowardice. Oh, I do things that involve risk, from piloting airplanes to riding motorcycles, single handed sailing, and so on, but I do them with what some have told me is a rather extreme focus on risk avoidance/mitigation. As in I won't start my car until my passengers have buckled their seatbelts, and I when sailing the calm pacific ocean I and my crews had safety harnesses on where other boats had girls getting sunburned on the foredeck. When I was learning to fly, my CFI liked to tease me that I was always looking for an excuse not to, but the reason we had so many canceled lessons was that I was the guy who watched the plane I was to fly taxi in and tie down, went to do my own preflight, and found that the fuel caps were missing - to give just one example. I'm also an extremely analytical person for all that I've been known to make a good intuitive leap when called for.

I made the mistake of assuming that others here were basically like me, which was not fair. As a result, I said things which from my POV were obviously "X", and assumed that everyone would read them as "X", and I was quite honestly blindsided by the "Y" interpretation that followed. I could have handled it better. Mea culpa.


As for the "close them up" tack, someday you will be faced with a bereft mother who asks what I asked. When a helpful poster tells her to kill herself, however obliquely (and if you don't know what I'm talking about, a mod removed those posts), you may find that she instead turns to her senators, who introduce a bill, and you will have chance to answer my questions in a slightly different setting. A well thought out argument will come in handy at that point. Just something to be thinking about from the PR side.