why enter a cave

[Kevin Carlisle]

Them, too many have been closed to diving. Landowners are scared of what they read on people dying in them, doesn't matter that a good many were not qualified to be there. Its an ongoing battle we fight. Stupid decisions and post like we have seen doesn't help that.

 

[ktomlinson]

LOL - I was actually being agreeable, not argumentative. It's you that seems bound and determined to argue.

I have another question now though, not related to your post.

- - - - - - - -

On land what usually happens is Timmy falls down the well (ok, mine shaft), Timmy's family sues everyone even remotely associated with the well, and someone along the way says, "don't want to go through that again," and fills the well with rocks. Does something similar happen with these under water caves? How many have been filled (covered with grates, whatever)?

If they don't get covered, what's the argument? After all, it seems like they are what's known as an Attractive Nuisance.

Caves have been destroyed and grated. Morrison was blown up with dynamite.

 

[Them]

Caves have been destroyed and grated. Morrison was blown up with dynamite.

The nature lover/low impact ethics side of me cringes. The humanist side whispers that dynamite is cheaper than human life. And that sealing a cave is probably a lot safer than recovering a body.

Was any justification given in cases where the caves weren't sealed?

 

[Them]

When people keep jumping off a bridge you put up fences so they can't. Yeah, it costs something, but it saves lives. When 3-wheel ATVs keep flipping and hurting people, you ban their sale. Yeah, it interferes with some people having fun, but it saves lives. If you are serious about protecting lives, and you know of an especially unsafe situation people can enter unaware, you have an ethical obligation to correct that situation. Signs obviously ain't cutting it.

 

[kotik]

When people keep jumping off a bridge you put up fences so they can't. Yeah, it costs something, but it saves lives. When 3-wheel ATVs keep flipping and hurting people, you ban their sale. Yeah, it interferes with some people having fun, but it saves lives. If you are serious about protecting lives, and you know of an especially unsafe situation people can enter unaware, you have an ethical obligation to correct that situation. Signs obviously ain't cutting it.

I'll suggest that rather than rushing into following the advice of one who has more thumbs than dives that it's our obligation as a species to destroy a selection of the most beautiful natural wonders on the planet, perhaps we might instead decide that scuba divers wouldn't die if they weren't scuba diving in the first place, so just outlaw sale and manufacture of the equipment? Problem solved.

 

[Them]

... perhaps we might instead decide that scuba divers wouldn't die if they weren't scuba diving in the first place, so just outlaw sale and manufacture of the equipment? Problem solved.

That would be reasonable IF all types of diving had equal risk. If there are safe and legitimate uses, on the other hand, it is more reasonable to block only the specific activities and areas that are unsafe.

You don't ban jumping when someone jumps off a bridge. You block more people from making THAT jump.

Oh, just for the record: I don't advocate blocking off access to all dangers in life. It just when experts insist that something is an extraordinary danger, a danger which cannot be compared to run of the mill activities like general aviation, where even talking about the danger without the proper level of acknowledgement that it is especially bad is grounds for being attacked and berated, I think the assertions of extreme danger put the Osama option on the table. You don't wait for Osama to attack again, you kill him before more people die.

 

[Fish-R-Man]

That would be reasonable IF all types of diving had equal risk. If there are safe and legitimate uses, on the other hand, it is more reasonable to block only the specific activities and areas that are unsafe.

Oh, just for the record: I don't advocate blocking off access to all dangers in life. It just when experts insist that something is an extraordinary danger, a danger which cannot be compared to run of the mill activities like general aviation, where even talking about the danger without the proper level of acknowledgement that it is especially bad is grounds for being attacked and berated, I think the assertions of extreme danger put the Osama option on the table. You don't wait for Osama to attack again, you kill him before more people die.

Them - You have mentioned in your profile that one of your interests is flying. You have also mentioned it in a couple of your posts. I would have to guess that you are either a pilot, or have a desire to become one. I wouldn't think you would mention it if it was just riding in the back... I have to ask; do you feel that all types of flying are an equal risk?

My father flew small planes for about thirty years, he had trained for an IFR rating, but because of being blind in his right eye, he never did obtain it. Even though he was trained for IFR, he never exceeded his level of certification. He went so far in his training to take inclement attitude lessons (stunt) into his early 60's. The sole purpose of those lessons was to have the experience and to know what to do if he had an issue with his plane.

From the way that you are debating the issue and advice of cave divers with a vast amount of experience in their areas of expertise, I have to wonder if you do the same when it comes to flying. If you had a group of very experienced pilots telling you not to fly into clouds, not to fly after dark, not to fly into fog, make sure you have enough fuel or whatever; would you debate that advice as well? You may get away with just flying through a small cloud without an issue if you are just VFR trained, the same way you will probably survive going just a little way into a cave. You may not if you get vertigo in your plane and not trust your instruments or you may do a couple of poor fin kicks and all of a sudden be in zero vis in a cave. You could be SOL in either case. If you have training your chances of not becoming a statistic are vastly improved.

What all of these divers are telling you is - Don't make poor choices when you have little knowledge. Cave diving with no training is an extraordinary danger. I am sure your more experienced pilot buddies will tell you the same thing about flying above your level of training.

 

[Them]

I

From the way that you are debating the issue and advice of cave divers with a vast amount of experience in their areas of expertise

I find this very strange. What exactly do you mean?

My "debating", as you characterize is, has had exactly this message: Caves, like many other things, are dangerous. People die when they do stupid things in caves, just as they die doing stupid things in airplanes, deserts, and Tijuana. There is no way, short of utter destruction, to completely eliminate those deaths.

I admit I wasn't expecting the level of disagreement my position has received, but as far as I can tell the only point of "debate" is that those cave divers who have chosen to take exception to my comments believe that placing caves in the same bin as aerobatic flight, for example, is somehow an insult to cave divers. I can't understand that perspective but I guess people like to think that what is special to them is really objectively special in some "universal truth" sense.

Them - You have mentioned in your profile that one of your interests is flying. You have also mentioned it in a couple of your posts. I would have to guess that you are either a pilot, or have a desire to become one. I wouldn't think you would mention it if it was just riding in the back... I have to ask; do you feel that all types of flying are an equal risk?

Yes to the interest, "Of course not" to the question.

As for the rest, I don't really know how to respond. You seem to have made as incorrect starting assumption and that locked your thinking down a path that really didn't have much to do with my posts or views. At one point you are even trying to convince me of one of my own central points, that caves are dangerous. That's what I've said all along.

 

[DevonDiver]

Them - You have mentioned in your profile that one of your interests is flying......

I've played a few computer flight simulators..and I'm not scared of heights. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't buy a second-hand Cessna and fly it around, day-and-night, in low cloud base, by myself.

Who are all these 'pilots' to think themselves expert and tell me what to do. I know myself, better than they know me... I could easily do that. There's nothing to hit in the air and I could figure out a landing pretty well... it isn't so hard to remember the steps that I read about online.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

That would be reasonable IF all types of diving had equal risk. If there are safe and legitimate uses, on the other hand, it is more reasonable to block only the specific activities and areas that are unsafe.

You don't ban jumping when someone jumps off a bridge. You block more people from making THAT jump.

Oh, just for the record: I don't advocate blocking off access to all dangers in life. It just when experts insist that something is an extraordinary danger, a danger which cannot be compared to run of the mill activities like general aviation, where even talking about the danger without the proper level of acknowledgement that it is especially bad is grounds for being attacked and berated, I think the assertions of extreme danger put the Osama option on the table. You don't wait for Osama to attack again, you kill him before more people die.

Feel free to take a general aviation aircraft for a flight - without proper instruction. Better yet, fly it in instrument conditions and fly an approach to minimums - all without proper training. That would be analogous to an OW diver attempting a cave dive.

Yet we don't ban general aviation aircraft, nor do we ban instrument flight.