Why donate my Primary?

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RICoder:
Tell me you've never been in an LDS where some new diver asks what BC to buy and a tech chimes in with "back plate and wings." It's a great system, with many benifits, but thats not the question, now is it?


I guess I don't get your point, because i your hypothetical that exactly WAS the question. A BP/W is a BC. The person was asking for a recommendation. The BP/W has things about it that this hypothetical experienced diver believes makes it a better (the best?) choice, so he recommends the BP/W as the best BC to buy.

How is that not answering the question?
 
RICoder:
I hang with people who are tech's, and I think its all very good for them, it just makes me tense when techs and DIRs try to convert the newbies before they are ready or even know if that way of doing things is right for them.

Yeah, I'm really pissed off because I got pushed towards a long hose and necklace for post-BOW dive #1. I totally wasn't 'ready' for it.

Tell me you've never been in an LDS where some new diver asks what BC to buy and a tech chimes in with "back plate and wings." It's a great system, with many benifits, but thats not the question, now is it?

Yeah, I should sue whoever forced me to buy a BP/W right away since I never got to enjoy diving in a jacket BC. *******s. What right did they have to tell me a newbie could dive in one.

I was TRYING to do my part to keep the thread from being hijacked into a DIR discussion and answer the OP's question...guess I failed :(

And as to "beating up" on the DIR-types, I'm not...the worst I said was that saying any task could be performed perfectly 100% of the time was (at best) hyperbole.

You brought up DIR. I didn't.
 
--EDIT--

We've sunk now to personal attacks and snide commentary? All that does is build on my experience, that the mentality of SOME DIR/Tech people is that of the converter of lost souls and arbiter of what is right and wrong regarding all things SCUBA. Try reading my posts again without assuming it is meant to disparage your sacred methods of diving and realize that they were directed at helping the OP instead.

I stated my oppinion clearly, without flaming or pretext, in an attempt to both answer the OP and keep things on track. This is my last post in this thread on the subject, I suggest you all re-read my posts before getting so miffed. Otherwise, if you or anyone else would like to discuss or debate my comments, you may certainly PM me, start a new thread, or have a mod split this one.
 
RICoder, I have to say that the problems I've encountered underwater (and although I haven't been diving that long, I've run into a few) have been neatly and efficiently solved by precisely the techniques I have learned to use to solve them. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the lessons I've had have proven quite useful in real situations.

Donate the primary is not what I was taught in OW or in several classes thereafter. Donate the primary seems to be pretty universal once you get into technical diving, and is certainly the teaching for recreational divers who are learning from the DIR system. Since it's uncommonly recommended in the standard recreational diving world, and common recommended by DIR people and tech divers, it seems to me that if someone asks why they should donate their primary, they are likely to get a lot of answers from technical divers and DIR people.

Having had an Air2, and attempted to donate my primary on a 24" standard regulator hose, I will offer the opinion that that's a very awkward and unpleasant way to manage an air share. Any regulator you are going to donate should be on a longer hose than that, unless you want to conduct an ascent with your noses pressed together.
 
costi:
Please understand this is an honest question but :why should a diver donate their primary air in an OOA situation rather than their "octopus".

It is probably the easiest (For most, after some practice, due to some of the reasons already mentioned in this thread.), quickest, and surest most reliable method of assuring a successful donation process. From donation response action, to re-establishing the donee's ability to breath. This applies in cases where you have the option of donating a reg, in cases where someone takes a reg from you, it is irrelevant.

It seems to me as a relatively new diver that if I need to give up my already established air source, donate it to the person in trouble, and reestablish my own air supply,(which I understand only takes minimal time), while I am trying to keep control of the situation, there is a moment there during the switch that potentially both divers could be at risk?

That is correct. It is a very small risk outweighed by the benefits for trained and skilled divers. But we know not all divers fall under this category, so the risks can be much higher for some, outweighing the other benefits of using this method.

As you can see from this thread, there is an endless number of possible scenarios. That list can be reduced to probable scenarios, after considering specific relevant factors: environment, location, diver(s), etc.

Given the reality of OW training and the skill set many of these divers are certified with, I believe that both second stage air sources should be readily available and easily useable by these potential donors and donees. While the Air2 or bungeed backup reduce some of the most likely problems associated with an octo, such as being out of place or difficult to retrieve, they create the need for removal of breathing reg by donor, tha Air2 further complicates matters by containing withing the same unit the primary BC inflator/deflator valve. And if for some reason, unlikely but possible, these differently configured backup/octo's become dislodged out of place, they could be much more difficult to retrieve, possibly necessitating the need to buddy breath from the same reg., another potential problem in itself related to removal of breathing reg.

These are items for consideration, even if some are relatively unlikely, they point to the need to understand the advantages and disadvantages of any chosen equipment configuration, and the need to learn how to effectively deal with all relatively probable scenarios. I just think it is important to be aware of what can happen in order to prepare for dealing with the less probable, but not farfetched occurrences.
 
RICoder:
DIR may be as wonderful for those that use it as they say it is, but to come into a discussion where a fairly new diver wants to know the logic behind primary donation and preach the wonders of the neck bungie is inapropriate IMO. (I'd say IMHO, but there is nothign H about my O).

I don't know where this DIR stuff is comming from but I disagree with you.

Once you finish discussing which reg you'll dnate, the next thing to focus on is what kind of backup you'll use and how you'll stow it. Since you're giving the other one away, this seems of more than minor importance.

I also disagree that it's somehow inappropriate for new divers. As an instructor, it's how I started divers and it worked far better in every respect than anything else we ever used. The backup was always easy to find and deploy, it stayed where it was stowed, when you switch back to your primary (many OOA's are temporary and they certainly are in class) you don't have to mess with re-stowing the backup and it's far more streamline. Another advantage is that there isn't anything special about the second stage that's used for the backup so it's completely interchangable with every other reg that you own. What more could you want and how would you say that this method falls short? The ease, convenience and reliability of this system makes it especially well suited to new divers.
 
Scuba:
Given the reality of OW training and the skill set many of these divers are certified with, I believe that both second stage air sources should be readily available and easily useable by these potential donors and donees. While the Air2 or bungeed backup reduce some of the most likely problems associated with an octo, such as being out of place or difficult to retrieve, they create the need for removal of breathing reg by donor,

Thank you. As long as there's one person in the world that agrees with me on this, I'm happy:D
 
Every day for the past twenty something years, the public start to my professional day has begun with a dive briefing. As I look out over the eager faces of 10 or 12 divers, I recite the day’s dive plan. A part of that briefing includes the phrase “Let me or one of the staff members know when you have reached 1500 psi, or 100 bar. It is NOT the end of the dive, but will allow us to plan on getting you to the ascent point with the proper amount of air to do a safe ascent”.

Almost no divers have a problem with this, and most days all goes very smoothly.

However a certain percentage of divers, calculated by one member of this board to be .02 percent, will flit about the dive like an energetic, oversized firefly, giving the ‘okay’ sign any time a staff member asks about air and suddenly get very wide eyed as they take the last breath from their tank.

For most divers, .02 percent seems like an insignificantly low number, as in ‘never happen’, right? Well in my life, .02 percent means that I have air shared with over 200 out of air divers, with varying levels of competency and comfort.

In the beginning of my professional career, I tried to respond to these situations exactly as the training agencies I represented taught, and I was not pleased by how things went.

As my business expanded, I got together with my staff and we tried to work out a better system.

For those who are wondering, we tried;
Donate the primary
Donate the secondary
Long primary hose
Short primary hose
Long secondary hose
Short secondary hose (and lengths in between)
Spare Air
Integrated inflator/second stage
Pony bottles

By try, I mean we practiced with each other, and then dived that configuration until we had a ‘real’ air share or two.

Most any configuration will work some of the time. But panicked people are a strange species, and they often think of doing things that you would not expect.

The set up I described earlier works for the type of diving I do, and for the type of people who dive with me. As I said, not politely enough before, cave and technical divers have a different set of priorities and SHOULD use a different configuration. However, the original poster asked a valid question and I do not think he should be bullied into investing in a configuration that probably will not suit his needs for some time to come, if ever.

But back to the discussion of configuration;
Open water divers cooperatively deal with initial problems face to face. That’s how they are trained, that’s what works. Once air sharing is initiated in open water, the optimum situation is usually side by side. The two divers can maintain contact by holding hands and immediately move to their optimum ascent point and ascend as needed. This is the reasoning behind the NASDS recommendation of having a secondary on either side. The one on the left can be breathed by the OOA buddy in a side by side position.

For those of you who smugly refer to your necklaced octo, which you can get to without using your hands, I wish you all the best of luck and may you always have calm and competent buddies. I have had a couple of very bad experiences that would preclude me ever relying on this system as a dive guide.

The first experience, long ago, I tried to pass my primary to an OOA diver who was moving from very stressed to panic mode. The OOA diver took my primary, on a longer than standard hose, and proceeded to climb up my body on the way to the surface. My mask got dragged down my face to my chin, in the process my nose was broken. I was repeatedly getting hit in the face as this person tried to drag me to the surface by my hose. There was NO chance of me getting any air source in my mouth on my own. One of my staff members sorted me out, the OOA diver eventually realized he was breathing and calmed down, we made a proper ascent. (but let me tell you how much fun it was trying to equalize with a broken nose for the next week or so. Okay, I’ll skip that part) The OOA diver NEVER knew what he did, that moment was just edited out of his memory.

This crawling up the donor thing has happened to me a couple of times. I also had someone grab the back of my head, while I was trying to donate my primary and crush my head to her sternum. While I had my alternate ready in my hand, her body was on three sides of my head (if you can picture it, laugh, I did later) and I couldn’t get the thing to my mouth.

I have had many discussions with the heads of various training agencies. One of their tenets is “with proper training ‘this’ is a valid air share technique” My argument to them is “If they were properly trained air sharing would never happen, if air sharing IS happening, you can not count on any level of training”.

If you are still reading, there is one other thing I must add to this donate the primary or secondary discussion;
Whatever method you use, you must practice it if you expect it to work smoothly. This has been mentioned before by many. What is not mentioned is that if you practice air sharing with the primary, you ARE sharing spit with every exchange. For those of you who practice with close friends or family members, good for you. But for those of you who are dive professionals, or wish to become such, know this, sharing spit with everyone you dive with, or teach can be fatal to your dive career!

While the training agencies have put out position statements that ‘the risk of disease transmission is very low with air sharing’, what they don’t say is the ONLY two diseases they looked at were HIV and Hepatitis! Those are not typically saliva transmitted in any case. They did not tell you about all the saliva transmitted diseases, like the cold, flu, sore throat, strep, tuberculosis, pneumonia, and so many others.

I practice my craft in a resort location. I have clients from all the continents that people commonly inhabit. Sitting at the crossroads like I do, I have no urge to share bodily fluids with everyone (or anyone) I dive with. Not to say anything bad about anyone in particular, but a common cold is three days out of work for a dive guide, the flu can be two weeks. I was given pneumonia once, that’s a minimum of three months of no income, if it causes lung damage, your dive career is over! That doesn’t even address the issue of Tuberculosis, which is making a comeback in places you might not expect, like New York. Before I met my wife, she learned to dive in a resort location. When she presented to her doctor, sick, he told her exactly where she had vacationed and that she must have tried scuba, based solely on her throat culture. (okay, the tan probably gave him a clue)

For those of you who think you have a better way, great, keep diving, keep practicing. For those who might want to learn from someone else’s experience and thereby have more good times with scuba, thanks for reading.
 
RICoder:
ACK! I'm not saying not to discuss it. :) I'm just saying that its probably not the best thing to throw at a self-proclaimed newbie who only wants to know why he should give up his primary in an OOA situation.

I hang with people who are tech's, and I think its all very good for them, it just makes me tense when techs and DIRs try to convert the newbies before they are ready or even know if that way of doing things is right for them. Tell me you've never been in an LDS where some new diver asks what BC to buy and a tech chimes in with "back plate and wings." It's a great system, with many benifits, but thats not the question, now is it?

I was TRYING to do my part to keep the thread from being hijacked into a DIR discussion and answer the OP's question...guess I failed :(

And as to "beating up" on the DIR-types, I'm not...the worst I said was that saying any task could be performed perfectly 100% of the time was (at best) hyperbole.
Hey Ricoder,
Yes, the thread has gotten a bit off base...but I guess I knew I was openning a can of worms when I posed the question. But, I'm only a newbie in the sport of diving....not the game of life. I can sort out useful information quite efficiently. For all intensive purposes, my question was answered on the first page from a few responses from H2 Andy and a couple of others who straight forward opinions.
Will I at this time switch over to donating my primary? Not yet. The guys that I dive with I trust in knowing that in an OOA situation, if I hand over my primary and have trouble with my secondary, I believe they will be of the presence of mind to understand
that it is time to share the primary. As far as an unfamiliar diver coming from nowhere in a panic state, I have a bit of a problem giving him my primary (even though I realize that the honest answer is that I may not have a choice in the matter), and if that is the case I can see the value of having my secondary bungied close by.
In the meantime, I'll continue with training, listening, reading, and practicing...in an attempt to become the most competent diver I am capable of becoming, one that can handle any situation thrown at me.
I do have to say though, many posts ago, Roakey stated that this topic had been previously discussed on another thread and that I should've used the search feature of this forum prior to posting a new thread. After I read the previous thread, I came back with the comment that the link he referenced had turned into a bashing session. IMO, the value and purpose of the thread had deteriorated. I hope this one doesn't head any further in that direction. (Just my two cents worth).
Dive safe and often, Bob
 

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