Why donate my Primary?

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Web Monkey:
The last thing I want is a freaked out diver 7' away dragging me to the surface by an LP hose.

You never have this happen unless you find someone with a 7' arm to reach out and snatch the reg out of your mouth. It is still possible to grab the person and calm them down (if needed) before making a controlled return to entry and ascent.

Everyone, no matter the configuration, should practice donating whatever AAS they use. In fact, I have never had anyone grab the reg out of my mouth since if they're going for it I have it for them and I'm already switching to my back-up before they get to me.

To everyone talking about 40" or 48" hoses instead of just going with a 5', believe me when I say I tried to think of every possible configuration that WASN'T a "long hose" before I switched over and nothing routes cleanly at all. The shortest primary I'll ever use is 5'.


Note to Fred: Have you ever used a long hose? Why are you so disparaging about its OW use? I won't be buying the book so you might as well share the logic (or lack there of) with me now.

Rachel
 
mattboy:
This is a topic which seems to inspire endless discussion; most of it pretty useful, but some of it based on logic that simply does not work; this is especially the case when analogies from cave and/or deco diving are used to formulate hard and fast "rules" for OW rec diving. For example, the bit about donating your primary because you want to make sure that the OOA diver doesn't get deco gas or a reg that's turned off....well, in OW rec diving, there's never deco gas, and there's amost never independent doubles, so that line of reasoning does not make sense. If you want to apply cave techniques (that you've been trained in) to your own OW diving, fine, but saying that they're better for OW diving (and with divers who have not received this training) because they apply to tech situations is simply false.

That said, there are lots of things that tech divers do that can benefit rec diving, and I think a slightly longer hose on whatever reg will be donated is one of those things. Regardless of your donating technique or manner of dealing with an OOA diver (hanging on, or keeping your distance) having more hose to work with will never be an impediment.

But, a bungied alternate on a really short hose could turn into a problem, because it assumes that the OOA diver will go for the reg in your mouth. Most OW divers are trained to go for the alternate when OOA, and so it's perfectly reasonable to expect some OOA diver to grab at the donating diver's bungied alternate; after all it's not far from where PADI trains you to keep your alternate. If you're tech or cave diving with other divers that know all about the bungied alternate, fine, but less than 1% of regular OW divers are going to know what this is.

One aspect of rec diving that must be considered in the great air-sharing debate, particularly in a resort area where there is a high percentage of divers with little experience and/or poor skills, is the unpredictability of those around you. So, I think it's probably best to have a set up which will allow you to successfully donate either primary or alternate. Personally, I have a standard length hose on my primary and a slightly longer (I think 36") than average on my alternate, but I'm considering going for 48" on that. If I were to get mugged for my primary; okay, it's maybe a little tight, but acceptable, and if an OOA diver comes at me asking for air, I can easily give him/her my alternate which is attached to my right chest D ring with one of those "bungie clips" that release the reg just by pulling, and there's a comfortable hose length for us to ascend together with.

BTW, it's fine to discuss an air sharing plan with your buddy, and if you're only diving with a trusted buddy, great. How about all those times you're in a resort area with a bunch of "just out of the OW class" "never did anything like this before" crowd? Those scenarios are hard to avoid if you want to dive in some of the more beautiful tropical locales, and I suspect they're also more likely to produce any sort of OOA situation, considering how many divers there are in close proximity, many with rental gear, etc.


So I have to change my current gear configuration to suit a bunch of poorly trained resort divers? And if I do end up being buddied with a diver like that, I am constantly monitoring his gas supply so an OOA situation is going to be unlikely..
and on the way out to the dive site, I will give him various scenarios and explain what the response is going to be..So i think I got all the bases pretty much covered with out changing to a coral dragging octopus setup...
 
Leftwinger16:
Well, that comment more applies to here at home..But I've found myself a few times set up with an insta buddy down south...
I was in Cuba in March with my usual buddy in tow....On a few of the dives, the DM asked us to break up our team and each of us buddy with a less experienced diver...We did it, but I thought it was his job to watch everyone..but hey, I try to be a helpful guy once in a while :D



When I am travelling without a buddy I will (reluctantly) dive with an insta-buddy. If I am travelling with a buddy and the DM tries to break us up to pair with 2 other less expeience buddies my response would be sure that makes crew so refund whatever we paid for this trip and pay us $100 a day each .
 
mattboy:
This is a topic which seems to inspire endless discussion; most of it pretty useful, but some of it based on logic that simply does not work; this is especially the case when analogies from cave and/or deco diving are used to formulate hard and fast "rules" for OW rec diving. For example, the bit about donating your primary because you want to make sure that the OOA diver doesn't get deco gas or a reg that's turned off....well, in OW rec diving, there's never deco gas, and there's amost never independent doubles, so that line of reasoning does not make sense. If you want to apply cave techniques (that you've been trained in) to your own OW diving, fine, but saying that they're better for OW diving (and with divers who have not received this training) because they apply to tech situations is simply false.

A couple of corrections...there very well may be a decompression gas in OW diving. Aside from that the logic is still sound. The logic is to donate a source that you know is working. Since you have just taken a breath from your primary you can be pretty certain that it's working. That same logic extends to situations where the possibility of more than one gas exists without having to totally relearn anything.

Doubles are not uncommon in OW and on manifolded doubles (maybe the most common) the primary is the one that rolls ON (if it's on the right post) and the back up is the one that rolls off (if it's on the left post). We donate the primary off the right post. That way if we do bump something and roll off the backup, we know it and simply reach back and turn it back on. again, the logic of donating the primary carrys over whether diving a single or doubles.

Why consider it as cave techniques? I trained my open water students this way and I can't see any reason why it didn't make sense to do so since it works every bit as well in OW and will still work if they go further with their diving without having to relearn basic skills. The same basic techniques work just fine if they decide to use one of those silly air2 things and can be adapted to rental gear by using the longer hosed reg for a primary and the shorter on for a backup by carrying a nickles worth of shock cord in their bag to make a necklace out of.
That said, there are lots of things that tech divers do that can benefit rec diving, and I think a slightly longer hose on whatever reg will be donated is one of those things. Regardless of your donating technique or manner of dealing with an OOA diver (hanging on, or keeping your distance) having more hose to work with will never be an impediment.

But, a bungied alternate on a really short hose could turn into a problem, because it assumes that the OOA diver will go for the reg in your mouth. Most OW divers are trained to go for the alternate when OOA, and so it's perfectly reasonable to expect some OOA diver to grab at the donating diver's bungied alternate; after all it's not far from where PADI trains you to keep your alternate. If you're tech or cave diving with other divers that know all about the bungied alternate, fine, but less than 1% of regular OW divers are going to know what this is.

I disagree. Why would I dive with some one if team procedures haven't been worked out ahead of time? Why should I hose up my configuration because PADI doesn't get it?
One aspect of rec diving that must be considered in the great air-sharing debate, particularly in a resort area where there is a high percentage of divers with little experience and/or poor skills, is the unpredictability of those around you. So, I think it's probably best to have a set up which will allow you to successfully donate either primary or alternate. Personally, I have a standard length hose on my primary and a slightly longer (I think 36") than average on my alternate, but I'm considering going for 48" on that. If I were to get mugged for my primary; okay, it's maybe a little tight, but acceptable, and if an OOA diver comes at me asking for air, I can easily give him/her my alternate which is attached to my right chest D ring with one of those "bungie clips" that release the reg just by pulling, and there's a comfortable hose length for us to ascend together with.

Wait a minute...you're designing your equipment configuration to maximize it's utility when diving around pooly trained or poorly skilled divers? My main concern is efficiency between my own buddy and I or within my team. I don't need to dress to match the whole world. Even so, I have actually had to donate my bungied backup on a short hose. It's kind of a funny story but it still worked out ok.
BTW, it's fine to discuss an air sharing plan with your buddy, and if you're only diving with a trusted buddy, great. How about all those times you're in a resort area with a bunch of "just out of the OW class" "never did anything like this before" crowd? Those scenarios are hard to avoid if you want to dive in some of the more beautiful tropical locales, and I suspect they're also more likely to produce any sort of OOA situation, considering how many divers there are in close proximity, many with rental gear, etc.

You bring up some good points here and also point out some real problems. If I have a buddy, it is a trusted buddy or a teaching situation which is very tightly controled both in terms of procedures and conditions. I've seen enough of PADI trained rec divers with screwed up equipment configurations that they don't know how to use trying their best to get each other killed to be fairly determined not to subject myself to that. I see enough crazy stuff at the local quarries to give me a nervouse stomack that I have no intention of spending a vacation that way.

Your reasoning reminds me of the old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans". That's sound logic only if you want to get what the Romans got.
 
biscuit7:
You never have this happen unless you find someone with a 7' arm to reach out and snatch the reg out of your mouth. It is still possible to grab the person and calm them down (if needed) before making a controlled return to entry and ascent.

Everyone, no matter the configuration, should practice donating whatever AAS they use. In fact, I have never had anyone grab the reg out of my mouth since if they're going for it I have it for them and I'm already switching to my back-up before they get to me.

To everyone talking about 40" or 48" hoses instead of just going with a 5', believe me when I say I tried to think of every possible configuration that WASN'T a "long hose" before I switched over and nothing routes cleanly at all. The shortest primary I'll ever use is 5'.


Note to Fred: Have you ever used a long hose? Why are you so disparaging about its OW use? I won't be buying the book so you might as well share the logic (or lack there of) with me now.

Rachel

Good points. While I address shorter primaries, I don't even like a 5 ft hose and use a 7 ft hose for all of my own diving. Just having all of your hoses routed flat against your body is a huge advantage all by itself.

Hose routing and air sharing are a couple advantages of a hogarthian configuration. Having all of your other equipment where it's neatly stowed and can best be used are other advantages. Having a bottom timmer or computer on your wrist makes for monitoring without extra movements, using a short HP hose with nothing on the end aside from an SPG makes for further streamlining, having lights stowed flat against harness straps makes for easy secure dployment without danglies...and the list goes on.
 
The search function is your friend. This was covered quite well in the following note:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=10022

Read my reply #9 in that thread -- absolutely no new ground is being covered by this new thread.

Roak
 
Leftwinger16:
In regards to that one, I avoid diving with anybody who is going to turn a simple gas share situation into a bolt to the surface....I might go as far to say that if having to breathe off of someone elses 2nd stage is enough to freak you out, it might be time to sell the dive gear, buy a guitar and join a band, before somebody gets hurt...

That's easy to do if you only dive with known buddies in areas where other divers aren't allowed.

However for most recreational dives, there's absolutely no reason that the person who grabs your reg couldn't be from a different buddy-pair or even a different boat.

Terry
 
Web Monkey:
However for most recreational dives, there's absolutely no reason that the person who grabs your reg couldn't be from a different buddy-pair or even a different boat.

Terry

Exactly, and this is why having a gear configuration that allows you to donate either primary or alternate is appropriate for OW, rec diving. You just don't know how someone else in a dive group is going to react in this situation. I do alot of diving in Cozumel, and I'm constantly diving with a group of mixed experience. I do this because I love diving there, and that's the reality of Cozumel diving. And, the environment is such that it's not any sort of inconvenience or compromise IMO to have enough hose on both primary and alternate to allow for sharing with either one. So in response to the complaint about "configuring gear to allow for poorly trained divers..." I have no problem with this specific configuration for my own use, so what's the problem?
 
I love some of the reasoning used in here... because my buddy will run out of air, then, using the stealth of a ninja sneak up on me, because I'm not paying any attention to him whatsoever, and in one split second steal the reg from my mouth and drag me kicking and screaming to the surface, however if he is not successful, then everyone else on the boat will be playing underwater redlight-greenlight with me until one gets close enough to seal the deal.

Honestly people, two cents worth of situational awareness will prevent any surprises, regardless of which regulator you're handing off.
 
roakey:
The search function is your friend. This was covered quite well in the following note:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=10022

Read my reply #9 in that thread -- absolutely no new ground is being covered by this new thread.

Roak

Well, we might as well shut the posting feature down on the board and leave the search...I'm sure every topic has been addressed at some point. I will bet that not one person that has posted in this thread, posted in the one you linked to from 2002..
 

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