Why does an LDS push newbies away from BP/WINGS?

[ClassAction]

Hi,

I'm new to diving -- just a few dives since my open water cert this summer. I just bought a BP + wing, in large part due to the posts on this board. I got an incredible deal of all of it...

I went to my LDS recently. When tried to sell me a BC, I (politely) explained that I got a really good deal on the BP/wings. They looked at me like I was crazy. They said it was "strictly for tech" diving and that I should be in a regular BC.

My impressions:

(1) They simply were pissed off that I didn't buy from them (obvious).

(2) Even though they sell the same BP/wings, they STILL push all newbies into a jacket BC. My guess is that they want to sell you the jacket, then convince you to "upgrade" into the BP/wings, which gives them two sales.

Any guidance?

 

[DiverBuoy]

I'd say that money is the motivation or ignorance one. If you say they sell the same BP/Wings in there store that eliminates the first thought I had which is merely "We don't sell it, so you need to buy our stuff".

That not being the case (IE they do carry your rig) you must remember that a very very large portion of the industry still sees BP/Wings as only technical gear. Eventually, this will change, but for now the Scuba industry suffers from being steeped in tradition, and indoctrinated beliefs.

 

[hambleto]

The LDS by me sells BP/Wing. I asked them these question:

When I was looking at taking the OW class from them, I asked if I could learn on one instead of a BC. They said no.

I offered to pay MORE to learn on them. They said no.

I asked if I buy one will they let me learn on it. They again said no.

Finaly I asked if I learn on the jacket can I buy one and have them set it up (I did offer to pay them to do this for me). They said they would not sell it to me unless I take their AOW, Nitrox, and a couple other courses.

Needless to say, I am taking my OW in Orlando and I will not buy my gear from the LDS here.

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

hambleto once bubbled...
The LDS by me sells BP/Wing. I asked them these question:

When I was looking at taking the OW class from them, I asked if I could learn on one instead of a BC. They said no.

I offered to pay MORE to learn on them. They said no.

I asked if I buy one will they let me learn on it. They again said no.

Finaly I asked if I learn on the jacket can I buy one and have them set it up (I did offer to pay them to do this for me). They said they would not sell it to me unless I take their AOW, Nitrox, and a couple other courses.

Needless to say, I am taking my OW in Orlando and I will not buy my gear from the LDS here.

To my knowledge, which admittedly is not infinite, I know of no training agency that certifies new students who have never been certified before, with gear akin to a backplate and wings.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, or draw and quarter me, and hang me on a tree if I have misspoke.

It is conceivable to me however, that there might be One Noble Instructor out there, somewhere, perhaps with an SSI active-status teaching credential, who does in fact do so. He may indeed be living and teaching in the neighborhood of Beverly Hills California Tinsletown USA.

But whether or not, I do not know this for sure.

 

[hambleto]

There are a couple of LDSes that I have spoken to that are willing to train people on a BP/Wing. (Just not the one near me) If nothing else, at least let them try it out during thier OW training. What better way to try out new gear than to have someone who is familiar with it?

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

hambleto once bubbled...
There are a couple of LDSes that I have spoken to that are willing to train people on a BP/Wing. (Just not the one near me) If nothing else, at least let them try it out during thier OW training. What better way to try out new gear than to have someone who is familiar with it?

Because, my Dear Friend, because, well, we are given these "rules" when it comes to certifying new divers. They are called protocols or requirements or standards or something like that. Because WE are required to do certain things, certain ways, and these ways are required of us. And WE do not get to decide.

The basic open water course is not the best time to try out a backplate and wings. Of course, maybe 50 years from now, everyone will be donning a backplate and wings in every open water couse. And then, in that future time, it may be viewed that jacket B/Cs and back-inflation B/Cs are indeed advanced gear, and should not be learned until after the backplate has been mastered.

In the meantime, we all teach by and large at the whim of the scuba gods, who are the scuba store owners, and thats what they prefer.

 

[boomx5]

Right before I logged on to this post I was reading through my old PADI OW manual circa. 84'. As I was thumbing through it I saw half of the divers in a backpack and wing configuration. What alot of people don't understand is that a backpack and wing used to be pretty much the norm. So my question is why the flip flop on this issue. PADI obviously used to condone it, but why not now?

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

boomx5 once bubbled...
Right before I logged on to this post I was reading through my old PADI OW manual circa. 84'. As I was thumbing through it I saw half of the divers in a backpack and wing configuration. What alot of people don't understand is that a backpack and wing used to be pretty much the norm. So my question is why the flip flop on this issue. PADI obviously used to condone it, but why not now?

Boomx5-in-Sacramento, many years ago, probably before you were born, there was no such thing as a jacket or back-inflation style B/C. ScubaPro had not invented it yet.

Back then, in the 1960s and 1970s, we wore small little backplates of a sort attached with a bracket to our single tank. And we wore "horsecollar" type buoyancy compensators, which mostly gave you buoyancy at the surface, if you orally inflated them, or which gave you instant buoyancy if you pulled the pin on them at depth that activated the CO2 cartridge that was designed to get you out of a pickel in a minute, if you got yourself into a pickle.

ScubaPro changed all that one fine day.

ScubaPro invented a "jacket" that was like a perfectly fitting horsecollar B/C, except it became a jacket. It became all the rave. It even had a low pressure power inflator running from your regulator. You could not easily neutralize your buoyancy at depth before, but now you could. You could now achieve something that was totally impossible a short time before: PERFECT neutral buoyancy.

It became all the rave! So much so, indeed, that it became an "acceptible standard" albeit even an "absolute standard" for basic open water students.

Today, many scuba store owners (almost like gods, because the scuba store owners are indeed the closest things to gods that we have in the scuba world today), many scuba store owners still believe religiously that new scuba students should learn to dive with a jacket style B/C.

It has almost become a sacred catechism with them.

And that, my dear friend is the why of it. That is why.


cat·e·chism (plural cat·e·chisms)

noun

1. christianity question-and-answer teaching: instruction in the principles of Christianity using set questions and answers

2. christianity religious questions and answers: the series of questions and answers that are used to test people’s religious knowledge in advance of Christian baptism or confirmation

3. christianity question-and-answer book: a book containing questions and answers used to test the religious knowledge of people preparing for Christian baptism or confirmation

4. book for rote learning: a handbook that teaches the basic principles of a subject, especially by repetition

5. body of principles followed unthinkingly: a body of basic beliefs and principles followed unthinkingly

 

[DiverBuoy]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


To my knowledge, which admittedly is not infinite, I know of no training agency that certifies new students who have never been certified before, with gear akin to a backplate and wings.

We have several who fit brand-new students in BP/Wings and these students do all their diving from day 1 in this configuration.

 

[ChrisM]

It is conceivable to me however, that there might be One Noble Instructor out there, somewhere, perhaps with an SSI active-status teaching credential, who does in fact do so. He may indeed be living and teaching in the neighborhood of Beverly Hills California Tinsletown USA

Until GUE comes out with its promised OW course, don't think he's teaching any OW courses....


Shops push Traditional BCs because:

1. That's what the shop monkey was trained on, and people are resistant to change.

2. For some reason, BPS are viewed as tech/DIR/used by arrogant dvers

3. $$$$$$$ Some brands - Zeagle, i.e., there are others I am sure -- have incentives such as giving a free BC to the shop for every ten or so they sell......

I am still surprised to walk into a dive shop in LA and find that they actually carry BPs and wings.