Why do you have to attend Nitrox classes in order to use Nitrox?

[nymbus]

Nonsense. All a dive shop needs to do is trade gas for money...just like the industrial gas suppliers. I can buy any gas or gas mix I want and I don't need to show any certification. They don't care what I'm going to use the gas for and it isn't any of their business.

The idea of a dive shop requireing certifications is for one reason and one reason only and that is to create a market for the certifications.

This may not be a popular post... but hey...

It is curious on this site that lds are the enemy at every turn. The lds I work with loses money providing NITROX. In order to break even, we would need to charge a crazy $15 bucks per tank. No dive shop in the history of diving has ever made money off air fills alone- be it 21% or 40%.

Furthermore, certs do not provide money by themselves either. We break even with classes, and generally the individual instructors lose money and resources once gas, food, lodging and extra time spent with individual divers is taken into consideration. I have certed 200+ people, and I have BROKEN EVEN. Diving simply pays for itself around here.

So where does the lds pay the bills? Gear sells. Flat out. By creating divers, you create a person dependent on some amount of gear- and along the way, you should give them the information that will make them safe, competent, and smart enough divers that they will trust getting the gear from the shop- instead of getting all of their experience and knowledge from you and then turning around and buying gear off the net. A real person with real experience and the ability to teach you more is priceless. (I recognize that I have an lds that is AWESOME... I know of some pretty crappy numbers-only places too.)
So-
It may not be "their business" to ask you what they are providing a service for, but it seems as though it would become their business if you were to die or become harmed using the services they provided. (See other discussions about reg overhauling on this site). I would not provide nitrox to a diver that I did not know was certed with us, or could show a cert card- simply because I don't rightly feel like being sued over a grand mal seizure at depth.

 

[H2Andy]

A bit off topic, but we keep hearing about all the LDS liability potential but rarely if ever hear about an LDS being held liable for something.

i suspect that's because their insurance companies treat everything as a potential liability issue, and pre-empt the possibility

(i.e. waivers, no gas sales to non-certified divers)

doing business in such a litigation-happy society has to take into account how to pre-empt that risk

 

[Dive-aholic]

Nonsense. All a dive shop needs to do is trade gas for money...just like the industrial gas suppliers. I can buy any gas or gas mix I want and I don't need to show any certification. They don't care what I'm going to use the gas for and it isn't any of their business.

If you don't put yourself in the position of being a baby sitter, you probably aren't establishing the duty of care that requires you to be one and probably have less liability...just like the industrial gas suppliers.

The idea of a dive shop requireing certifications is for one reason and one reason only and that is to create a market for the certifications.

Ditto. I haven't shown a cert card for any fills in a long time. And I've gotten air fills, nitrox fills, 100% O2, and trimix - all with no cert card shown. I've even rented doubles and deco bottles with no cert card shown.

 

[diver 85]

It's also (financially) rewarding to PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc etc etc....Plus the dive shops/instructors that have to teach the class......lol.....ask the Feds about the cost of red tape.......

 

[diver 85]

Nymbus saying...."So where does the lds pay the bills? Gear sells"...I think that's sales, but whatever, any, you're in trouble then....Alot of LDS's are quickly becoming 1-800-+++++++, just a phone call away......Like it or not, this is the 21st Century(as Walter would say, wait, maybe that's the 20th century...lol).........good luck........

 

[HowardE]

Cant say ive ever once been asked for any proof of certification to buy anything from air through to 100% O2.

Provided my tank is in test they fill it.

And thats exactly how it should be.

There is ONLY 1 shop I know of that has a policy to check C-Cards for each and every fill. (I don't really go there for fills, but they have it on their door)

There is NO SHORTAGE of dive shops in South Florida. I've been to several, and only that 1 (that I'm sure other South Floridians know where I'm talking about) has checked.

 

[UndrWatrDan]

hi guys,

coz i think, in actual fact, you just go to the shop, and they will give you a nitrox mix tank, and you grab it and go down to the water. no?

I'll give you a good example of why you want to take a class and not just "grab it and go down to the water". My wife and I were teaching a Nitrox class to a group in La Paz. We stressed over and over how important it was to personally check your mix before the dive. Prior to one dive one of the student's grabbed a tank, began his analysis and called us over when the reading was 80%. We recalibrated the analyzer, and rechecked the tank, still 80%. Had the Dive Mgr, check the tank, 80%. Had he "grabbed it and gone down to the water" he would more than likely not be with us today. Knowing the limits of breathing higher percentages of oxygen and knowing the hazards is very important when breathing enriched air, and in this case knowing how to properly analyze a tank, saved a life.

 

[diver 85]

I'll give you a good example of why you want to take a class and not just "grab it and go down to the water". My wife and I were teaching a Nitrox class to a group in La Paz. We stressed over and over how important it was to personally check your mix before the dive. Prior to one dive one of the student's grabbed a tank, began his analysis and called us over when the reading was 80%. We recalibrated the analyzer, and rechecked the tank, still 80%. Had the Dive Mgr, check the tank, 80%. Had he "grabbed it and gone down to the water" he would more than likely not be with us today. Knowing the limits of breathing higher percentages of oxygen and knowing the hazards is very important when breathing enriched air, and in this case knowing how to properly analyze a tank, saved a life.

So what you're saying is me,as an eye doctor, should expect all my patients who receive a spectacle Rx to take a course in lesometry & know how to analyze their glasses before wearing them day to day OR should it be my office's responsibility to properly inspect them before dispensing them....Help me out, please........

 

[Dive-aholic]

Apples and oranges. Glasses won't kill you if they're the wrong Rx. They may give you headaches and affect your vision, but that's about it. Breathing 80% below 33 fsw will put you over the 1.6 ppo2 limit leading to O2 tox, leading to death.

 

[amascuba]

This may not be a popular post... but hey...

It is curious on this site that lds are the enemy at every turn. The lds I work with loses money providing NITROX. In order to break even, we would need to charge a crazy $15 bucks per tank. No dive shop in the history of diving has ever made money off air fills alone- be it 21% or 40%.

Oxygen typically costs around $.08 per cubic foot. To make EAN 32% you need 14% Oxygen added to air. So let's say that I want to fill an AL80 with EAN32 to 3000psi.

(32 - 21) / 79 * 3000 = 418psi/Oxygen

80 / 3000 = .027psi/cf

.027 * 418 = 11.29cf/Oxygen

.08 * 11.29 = $.91

So to fill an AL80 to 3000psi it costs the dive shop less than $1 in Oxygen. Now take into account labor for maybe 15 minutes and the logistics of air, whether it's banked in a cascade or the shop fills straight from the compressor (gas or electric). You can't tell me that to BREAK EVEN to fill a tank of EAN32 you would have to charge $15. At $15 you are making more then a few dollars of profit for 15 minutes of actual work.

It takes me 25 minutes to fill my double AL80's with EAN32 using a continuous mixing system. That includes the time that I start the compressor, turn on the Oxygen and get the flow correct, connect the fill hose to my tanks, submerge my tanks in a bath while filling, and monitoring the Oxygen levels flowing through the stick.

Furthermore, certs do not provide money by themselves either. We break even with classes, and generally the individual instructors lose money and resources once gas, food, lodging and extra time spent with individual divers is taken into consideration. I have certed 200+ people, and I have BROKEN EVEN. Diving simply pays for itself around here.

This may be true on Open Water classes, but it's nowhere near true on Nitrox classes. Nitrox classes take a couple hours to complete. That includes going through the material, taking a test, analyzing a tank of air and EAN32, and filling out paper work. Most shops around here charge atleast $150 for the basic nitrox class.

So where does the lds pay the bills? Gear sells. Flat out. By creating divers, you create a person dependent on some amount of gear- and along the way, you should give them the information that will make them safe, competent, and smart enough divers that they will trust getting the gear from the shop- instead of getting all of their experience and knowledge from you and then turning around and buying gear off the net. A real person with real experience and the ability to teach you more is priceless. (I recognize that I have an lds that is AWESOME... I know of some pretty crappy numbers-only places too.)
So-
It may not be "their business" to ask you what they are providing a service for, but it seems as though it would become their business if you were to die or become harmed using the services they provided. (See other discussions about reg overhauling on this site). I would not provide nitrox to a diver that I did not know was certed with us, or could show a cert card- simply because I don't rightly feel like being sued over a grand mal seizure at depth.