Why do you dismiss DIR?

[newton]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
While I agree that everything I have learned in DIR is an excellent way to do every kind of recreational limits diving I had been doing... it is certainly not the only way... though I must admit that the viz has cleared up remarkably in all my favorite dive sites

Just to put things back into perspective, since the class, my wife and I have been spending at least one day/week in the pool, working on our bouyancy and trim. However, I'm more motivated to do it out of *spite* in the class, rather than because I want the satisfaction of saying I completed the course. My wife on the other end, was almost ready to quit diving because they pushed her so hard. Because of this is why I don't believe this kind of 'teaching style' is appropriate. My wife is as good/better a diver than me, but she has a much thinner skin and takes the criticism personally.

MHK is a teddy bear compared to Andrew... be thankful

It wasn't MHK either, who lives in LA. It was a software engineer from the Bay Area who dives in Monteray (sp?). I'm not sure why he was chosen to instruct our class, since from his discussions with the other instructors, he hadn't even taken Tech 2. (No complaints about him though, he was the least confrontational of the three instructors.)

The amazing thing is... if you go practice what you were taught and master the skills you will be a far better diver... and then when you come back for Tech 1 you will be reduced to a non-diver who just wants to take up golf... and then after you go practice.... ect. ect.

See above. My buoyancy/trim skills are *vastly* improved since I took the course. However, my motivations were to get my wife back in the pool, so that she wouldn't be *totally* turned off with diving. (That and buying her a drysuit so she doesn't freeze to death seemed to have made her willing to continue diving with me, at least in the short-term.)

We're going back to Seattle in early April to do our dry-suit checkout dives, and to hopefully have *fun* in Seattle.

Humiliation may work for the military, but I don't see it as an appropriate teaching method for *any* kind of diving.

I agree with your first assertion but not with your second.... it is definitely like boot camp in some respects and that is not for everyone.... but it worked for me.

Just because it works doesn't make it appropriate. It tends to produce folks (divers and instructors) that treat people in the same manner that they were treated during their classes (students, or other divers).

However, maybe it *is* the intent of the DIR movement to make (technical) diving more of a he-man sport, and not accessible to the everyday man. At least, that's the attitude I'm hearing, even from you.

I'd like to think that (aside from the attitude), much of DIR *can* be useful to the recreational/tech-wannabe crowed. Like an earlier post of your said, diving is more than a *laissez faire attitude*, and must be taken seriously, and this can be taught/shown without belittling an individual.

Also, before I qualify for he-man/technical-diver status, I have to start somewhere. I'd like to think that someday me (and hopefully my wife) would be good enough divers to do technical diving. Unfortunately, if doing it safely (aka- DIR style) means dealing with the attitudes of the current crop of DIR divers and instructors, it's simply not worth it.

In the interim, I'll keeping trying to improve my diving, learning from people who are willing to teach me without demeaning me.

 

[Uncle Pug]

(and not some other *mix de-jour*)

Several issues:
1. standardization of gases
a. easier PP mixing
b. easier filling from pre-mixed banked
c. easier to remember NDL or deco schedules
d. lessens chance of using wrong mix

2. EAD advantage:
a. 20% advantage with EAN32
b. easy to figure EAD
c. no significant planning advantage between 32~36

3. Lower O2 exposure:
a. for dives that will require exposure to elevated PO2s in deco
b. for dives that will be followed by dives with elevated PO2s
c. for cold, stressful dives where CO2 build up is a possibility


For 2.c.
***try this with a 60 dive on 32 & 36 - what EAD would you use for each... remember the tables?***

 

[VTWarrenG]

newton,

It was a software engineer from the Bay Area who dives in Monteray (sp?). I'm not sure why he was chosen to instruct our class, since from his discussions with the other instructors, he hadn't even taken Tech 2.

Probably David Chamberlin. He was involved with your class because he was being trained to become a DIRF instructor himself (he succeeded). I don't think Tech 2 is necessary to be a competent DIRF instructor.

However, maybe it *is* the intent of the DIR movement to make (technical) diving more of a he-man sport, and not accessible to the everyday man. At least, that's the attitude I'm hearing, even from you.

Technical diving is not accessible to the everyday man, and shouldn't be. Jumping out of helicopters onto virgin mountains is also not accessible to the everyday man, either. Both are far too dangerous to attempt without a great deal of experience, training... and natural aptitude. Some people simply will not be successful technical divers, no matter what they do. All respectable agencies (NACD, NSS-CDS, GUE) and even some less-respectable ones will fail students who don't cut the mustard. It's unfortunate that PADI and other agencies have promulgated the myth that diving is "easy" and "anyone can do it." Far from it.

I apologize on behalf of Andrew G. -- he is indeed a total bastard. Don't let it get you down about your skills, your diving future, or anything else. You're a better diver now than you were before DIRF, even if you didn't pass. Get back on the horse.

- Warren

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by newton
We're going back to Seattle in early April to do our dry-suit checkout dives, and to hopefully have *fun* in Seattle.

I certainly hope you will let me know when you are coming so we can do some fun dives... I would love the chance to make it up to you.

However, maybe it *is* the intent of the DIR movement to make (technical) diving more of a he-man sport, and not accessible to the everyday man. At least, that's the attitude I'm hearing, even from you.

Nah... it is not about He-man stuff... it is about the real dangers involved in Technical diving.... and I sometimes think that the approach is not only to get people ready to do the big dives but to scare off people who are not ready and would only get hurt... I could be wrong but that is the conclusion I am coming to. One thing that I have noticed lately is folk with gear that could get them in serious trouble but obviously without the skill to go with it. Somebody sold them that stuff and it is a real shame.

 

[Uncle Pug]

When was your class???

 

[newton]

It was a software engineer from the Bay Area who dives in Monteray (sp?). I'm not sure why he was chosen to instruct our class, since from his discussions with the other instructors, he hadn't even taken Tech 2.

Probably David Chamberlin. He was involved with your class because he was being trained to become a DIRF instructor himself (he succeeded). I don't think Tech 2 is necessary to be a competent DIRF instructor.

Probably. His name was Dave.

In any case, I think I stated that he did a good job, and had less of the 'DIR' attitude than the other two instructors.

Technical diving is not accessible to the everyday man, and shouldn't be. Jumping out of helicopters onto virgin mountains is also not accessible to the everyday man, either. Both are far too dangerous to attempt without a great deal of experience, training... and natural aptitude. Some people simply will not be successful technical divers, no matter what they do. All respectable agencies (NACD, NSS-CDS, GUE) and even some less-respectable ones will fail students who don't cut the mustard. It's unfortunate that PADI and other agencies have promulgated the myth that diving is "easy" and "anyone can do it." Far from it.

But recreational diving *IS* easy. And it's safer than driving a car.

Technical diving is not nearly as safe, but it's not because it requires some super-human natural ability to do it.

Comparing recreational diving to technical diving is like comparing a commute home from work with driving at the Daytona racetrack. Both involve basically the same equipment (car and road), but are *vastly* different in terms of what can be done safely. *WITH* proper training almost anyone can drive the track at Daytona. They may never be Jeff Gordon, but that doesn't mean they aren't capable of being a safe driver. It takes proper equipment and dedication to the sport. The same can be said of technical diving. If you want it bad enough, you will do what it takes (training, equipment, etc..) to become a good technical diver. In that respect, it is attainable to the everyday man.

Don't let it get you down about your skills, your diving future, or anything else. You're a better diver now than you were before DIRF, even if you didn't pass. Get back on the horse.

I *am* a better diver now. However, I'm not motivated to become a better diver because I've been humiliated in a DIR-F class. I was motivated to become a better before I took the class, hence the reason for taking the class in the first place. ;-)

However, I doubt I would take another GUE course, since I prefer taking it with my wife, and I don't want to subject her to the abuse she took in the previous course.

Finally, to clear things up, I don't believe my instructors were *any* different than any other GUE course instructors, so I'm not singling them out. I believe that my experience mirrors the experience of others who have taken the courses, be it DIR-F, Cave, or Tech courses.

 

[MNScuba]

Diving In Redundancy

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by newton
However, I doubt I would take another GUE course, since I prefer taking it with my wife, and I don't want to subject her to the abuse she took in the previous course.

No Joke!

I wouldn't even let my wife take the DIRF course...
But then she doesn't dive... doesn't even want to dive...
So I absolutely refuse to let her take the DIRF course!!!

Seriously the first thing I said to my buds after dragging my rump home from Tech 1 was "Don't do it."

Course now that a little time has passed my tune is changing but their memories haven't.

 

[VTWarrenG]

Since I'm scheduled to take DIRF and Tech 1 with Chamberlin and Georgitsis, respectively... I have to ask...

What kind of abuse is suffered in these classes? So far I've heard that it makes grown men cry, and women want to stop diving altogether. How bad does it get? Do they yell at you? Spit in your face? Call you a maggot? Just make you feel stupid?

- Warren

 

[newton]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

I wouldn't even let my wife take the DIRF course...
But then she doesn't dive... doesn't even want to dive...
So I absolutely refuse to let her take the DIRF course!!!

She probably wouldn't enjoy it at all, especially being a non-diver.

In any case, I consider myself a very lucky man that my wife dives. Not only that, she enjoys it, when she's not freezing to death or being humiliated. Even more interesting is she's the one that likes to go deep, while I'm the more conservative type.

Seriously the first thing I said to my buds after dragging my rump home from Tech 1 was "Don't do it."