DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[KevinNM]

It's really, really sad that you do not understand that this does not in any way demonstrate the validity of the bell curve. It will obviously take me far too long to explain it all to you.

Yup. An extreme example is Army or Marine basic training. It’s designed to pass everyone. Everything you need to know and do will be taught, and retaught as needed until you can demonstrate it on demand. The physical demands are well within what a healthy young person can do. The people who don’t make it almost never fail because they didn’t learn the material or were unable to do x pushups. It’s either psychological or medical - they can’t handle being in the military or they get hurt badly.

 

[Wibble]

Smaller and lighter till you add bailout. Which the GUE config already has.

Bailout, on a normal rebreather, is completely separate from the diluent, so fully redundant. And full. And can be passed over to someone in extremis.

 

[Germie]

I have never done a gue course, and I don't think I will do, or it must be free. When I started diving, I was already interested in technical diving, but nobody could help me on that path. DIR was the group of divers to stay away from, you will die if you use foots on cylinders.
When I heard of gue, I was already certified for 51m with a trimix. So to start over again was no option. I started with iantd and still do that. The reason was also the price. I calculated the shortest way to 100m and that was 3 courses. For cave I started with tdi, the 1 week course from cavern to full cave. I was not rich in that time (now still not), so I could not afford me 1500 buck for a course. So I had to look for the price-path I could afford. Also I was interested in sidemount. But had no option or money to start with then.
The advanced recreational trimix was 550 euro, normoxic 450, full trimix 850 including gases(but I had looked at an more expensive option first). That was a path I could afford me. So I did. The cave was 1500 from cavern to full cave, including food, equipment, and a place to sleep and gases.

I did during my path DIR and non-DIR courses. The ART course was DIR orientated, but my normoxic was absolutely non DIR. Full trimix completely DIR again. The cave was also non DIR. Was it wrong? No, I learned to deal and to dive with every diver. The ones that are non-DIR also don't die more often. An eye opener.
My configuration is DIR. My diving is for 80% the same as is teached in gue courses. But I use sometimes ean80, half the cns of 100% on the same dive, same decotime to mention an advantage of ean80 over 100%. But I also dive solo and like solodiving and want an agency that also accepts that.
When I was ready for my full trimix course, I would have done tec-2 of gue if that was possible without first the fundies and tec1. I already could do that dives. If that was not possible, I decided to look at the cheapest way. I knew I could do that dives, so it was a waste of money to do beginner courses again.
Also I started sidemount and ccr before it was available with gue.

Okay, now why I still look at gue (and also nacd, nss-cds, naui, ssi, swedtech, ise, etc): I also teach. And I like to know what others do. I read about it. So if I now have a student with a gue base that goes further with another agency with me, I know what is learned. And what I can expect. I also can change the way of teaching. If someone wants to use standardgases, I can do, I only have to explain why best mix is also an option. But at the end, a safe diveplan must be made. I always use the END max 30m as example. DIR say END max 30m and standardgases, then it is always right. True. But for 56m depth you can use an 18/45. END at that depth 20m. So right within the DIR requirements. But you can safe 20-25 euro a dive without doing anything worse with safety and you still don't have to change your diveplan. Take an 18/35. END 28m, deco is 1-2 minutes shorter (so the 18/45 plan can be used or ratio deco, or deco on the fly).
Also you can stay most times 1 minutes longer on a wreck at 60m with an ean40 (40/15) as first decogas instead of an ean50. Just because you change deeper and can use that gas in twinset to stay 1 minute longer on the wreck and still use the 1/3rd rule.
Nice examples to be a thinking diver. So for me reading about other agencies is good to be a better instructor and not only know what you have to teach.

In the last 12 years you see gue moving more to other agencies. The bottomtimer and ratio deco and deco on the fly is now a computer, planningsoftware and pragmatic deco. I learned 10 years ago already pragmatic deco. The ratio deco can still be used as a first idea of diveplan. You directly know if people talk ******** or that they know what they are talking about. It is not 5 minutes more or less deco to be safe or not safe. Deco is still not absolute mathematics or knowledge. But with gradient factors you can adjust a plan more to fit yourself or your team than just stick to ratio deco as only truth. 20 minutes bottomtime of a 1:2 ratio doesn't mean that with 20 minutes bottomtime 42 minutes deco is wrong or that you will die with 38 minutes. But you know your plan must be around that ratio. If you want to be more conservative, you will do 45-50 minutes deco. Nothing wrong with that.

Sidemount is introduced a few years ago. Other agencies already teached sidemount for a long time. Also the same with ccr. The biggest difference is that you can start with ccr directly if you want with other agencies instead of first doing tec1 and/or tec2. Same with sidemount, you can do a full cave course in sidemount.

The ratio deco of ise is a little bit different from gue or swedtech. DIscussions about ean50 above or under the 100% are seen between agencies. But both have an argument to do it the way they do it.

So for me the reason to follow other agencies is to know what they teach. And maybe I will learn something about the theory. The diving is not different, a twinset is a twinset, a cavecookie is a cavecookie. 1/3rd is 1/3rd. END is END (only oxygen narcotic or not). Analysing and planning is for every dive needed.

And at the end, there are no statistics that 1 agency does it better with accidents than another one.

Also DIR divers follow other agencies. Just to know what is going on there. (and some to know how 'wrong' others are). Following others is human and i believe divers are also human

 

[Wibble]

Sorry, but you're speaking from a place of little/no experience on this. Having dove a rebreather in both a backmounted bailout and sidemounted bailout config, I would argue the backmounted bailout config is better suited for boat/wreck diving than it is for cave diving, but works well enough for both.
While I can't speak to the weight of the JJ, my Fathom in backmounted bailout configuration is very similar in weight to a set of hp100s, so not really that heavy at all. In fact, when you compare the backmounted BO configuration to a sidemounted BO config, once bailouts are on it's almost a wash in terms of weight and size, the main difference being the backmounted configuration is slightly taller whereas the sidemounted configuration is wider. I find it's far easier getting on and off a boat in my backmounted BO config with deco gasses clipped off on the left side, than it is for guys waddling with two tanks bungeed on each side, and I have more bailout gas than they do with their "appropriately" sized cylinders. Not to mention my bottom bailout is in a set of manifolded doubles that I can shut down and/or isolate in the event of a problem.

“Sidemounted bailout”

This is the crux of the matter. Most rebreather bailout cylinders hang down just as per OC deco stages.

Sidemounting means using bungees to pull the cylinders back under the armpits and tight again at the body. This means they’re stable, streamlined and don’t present a snag risk in confined environments.

The big challenge then is mounting bailout cylinders on both sides As there’s no longhose this isn’t a problem.

Also inverted cylinders protect the valves should you bang the roof/hole

 

[RTodd]

I remember this story here on SB, but if I recall correctly, the guy was already GUE cave2 and normoxic trimix with another agency (or maybe we are speaking about different stories...).

Taking t2 as the first GUE class, and passing it, is more than impressive. But I find it difficult to believe it, especially when you consider that many hypoxic trimix instructors or full cave instructors join GUE and have to do everything from scratch, despite knowing quite well some GUE IEs.

Not saying it is impossible, just... wow

It really isn’t. It just takes the right foundation and mindset which as discussed to death here isn’t taught in OW anymore. My only formal Trimix class and only GUE class ever was tech-2. Trimix used to be a bit more self taught with mentors. I had already been doing the dives and JJ encouraged me to get the training for ocean stuff.

 

[flymolo]

“Sidemounted bailout”

This is the crux of the matter. Most rebreather bailout cylinders hang down just as per OC deco stages.

Sidemounting means using bungees to pull the cylinders back under the armpits and tight again at the body. This means they’re stable, streamlined and don’t present a snag risk in confined environments.

The big challenge then is mounting bailout cylinders on both sides As there’s no longhose this isn’t a problem.

Also inverted cylinders protect the valves should you bang the roof/hole

Yes, I’m familiar with the concept having dove in that configuration myself albeit with my 3L valves up. Did you have a point though? It doesn’t seem like you actually read my post so I’m starting to think you’re just trolling.

 

[ginti]

It really isn’t. It just takes the right foundation and mindset which as discussed to death here isn’t taught in OW anymore. My only formal Trimix class and only GUE class ever was tech-2. Trimix used to be a bit more self taught with mentors. I had already been doing the dives and JJ encouraged me to get the training for ocean stuff.

I think you are underestimating a bit two things:
1 - your skills;
2- the luck of being surrounded by the right people.
Anyway, congratulations, I still see it as a challenge.

By the way, did you like the class?

 

[jadairiii]

.... 300 yards in 14 mins is not that hard.....

GUE standard is close to this also (I think Cave 1 is 400 yards in 14 min), which is shockingly slow. 300 yards in 14 min is drifting. I am not a fast swimmer, and I am 61, but I can swim a 300 in about 4 and a half minutes without trying too hard.

If a student is pushing up against the 14 min time limit, they cant swim, period.

 

[lostsheep]

But the divers I have seen doing the more advanced/hard to get to recreational dives are typically GUE divers.

I call BS; It probably seems that way because of the exclusive policies of the Escapade; they won’t take anyone except GUE and the occasional AOW class. We don't exactly have a lot of tech boats around here so that leaves Lobos and Monestary.

It's pretty interesting to me to see many people being super interested in what GUE does. How they set up the equipment, what the standards are, why gue does something, and then never perusing training with GUE.

So if you're not GUE trained and you're constantly trying to figure out what and why GUE does something, why?

I am not surprised at all that someone who would choose the GUE path would ask your question. By that I mean that you have accepted and dive ONE WAY. Those who don't pursue the GUE path are exactly the kind of people I would expect to examine differing approaches.

I like to know how everyone does things, I compare and contrast the approaches, and then I make up my own mind. There are GUE techniques I have adopted and there are some I flat out reject.

In full disclosure I have only done fundies.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Those who don't pursue the GUE path are exactly the kind of people I would expect to examine differing approaches.

My guess is that many of us who settled on a GUE path (at least for the forseeable future) DID examine differing approaches before latching onto GUE. Except for the few who took GUE's basic OW course, Rec 1, all of us invariably took our OW courses and perhaps other courses with another agency before we got on the GUE path. I began with PADI, then I took Fundies, then pursued some training elsewhere, and eventually got back on the GUE path. I'm not implying that you're doing so, but I suggest we don't incorrectly stereotype divers who settled on a GUE path as being narrow-minded or uninquisitive by nature.

You took Fundies, so you're not the kind of person the original question addresses: one who participates enthusiastically in the various GUE threads but never takes Fundies.