DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[ginti]

and almost all, if not all, were solo

@Germie, by the way, if they were solo-diving when they died, they were not DIR. Solo is a no-go for DIR.

To be honest, some dives are so impressive that being more than one might be a risk, but how many dives are like that? I can only think of:
- very deep explorations of caves and wrecks, below 150m/490ft, and probably not all of these dives are safer alone than in a team;
- extremely small caves, where there is no space for more than one diver for a very long portion of the dive.

Definitely a negligible portion of the dives people do and die for.

 

[Germie]

There are caves where a normal JJ will fit, or any other 3 liter cylinder ccr and the gue 7 liter JJ not.
The modified JJ is way too heavy in my eyes, as it is easier to take ali80's as bailouts. I can carry every bailout to the entrance of a cave one by one in a backpack or just carrying them. And then carry the ccr on my back which is less heavy than a twin12.

As for accidents, I don't know if there is ever mentioned if a died diver was a 'DIR' diver or non-DIR. Sometimes solo is told, but most times you really don't know. So it is easy to say that most accidents are with 'non-DIR' divers, but you really don't know. When I dive my inspiration, is that non-DIR? No, it isn't. It is a mindset.
When I dive my Sidekick, that can also be DIR.
No mount restrictions can be DIR I read here, so then you can state that almost every technical dive is DIR then as long as the gases are analysed and the dive is planned before starting the dive.
Are there any other projects that had the same amount of divers as wkpp and worser records? I really don't know. And can you compare different projects with each other? I don't think so, that is the difficult part. Exploring new wrecks at 100+m depth is completely different from exploring caves. The risk of getting bent in a 100+m wreckdive is higher than in a 15m cave. Other risks are maybe comparable.
I also know that even if you don't do anything wrong, **** can hit the fan, and you can get into problems. I also know of an example where waiting for other divers to do a search for missing divers would caused problems and the only diver on site that could search did it solo with finding the missing divers back. So was the solodiver at that time maybe also diving DIR?
There is no strict boundary. And telling that gue or dir is the best and only right way to dive, that is wrong. Tunnelvision amoung divers will not help in diver safety. So please look further and there is also nothing wrong to look at recreational divers that do their dives within a lot of limits and have fun and surface safe.

And for deep trimix explorations: the safety divers must be really good self sufficient divers, most times are they also more or less solodivers. That is also not DIR? I have done such dives, worked with safety divers and that divers must be really trustful self reliant and most times good solodivers. They take your cylinders or switch them for full ones and leave you again. A complete team for the (shallow) safety divers will not work. For deep safetydives there will be shallow safety divers needed, but the shallow safety divers work most times as self reliant solodivers, but are part of the team. That is also DIR in my eyes.

 

[ginti]

@Germie , probably my point wasn't clear, sorry for that. I try to rephrase.

In certain situations, you can say 100% that the victim wasn't DIR, for instance: solo-diving, deep air, equipment clearly against standards (for instance, side-mount in an OW dive), etc.

In all the other cases, without extra details, nobody can say anything.

Despite, without extra details, anything we say doesn't have any statistical meaning, you said:
The ones that are non-DIR also don't die more often. An eye opener.

You have no data to prove it, nor to disprove it. Therefore, this claim doesn't really make sense in my opinion, that's it

I added that WKPP is recognised for very high safety record, which is a good hint of the safety level of GUE and DIR, but I haven't looked at the data and I can't confirm it. And I was clear about it.

Now, if we want to continue this topic, we really need to have a look at many data and use a bit of statistics... I will not do it, sorry for that

Dive safe!

 

[crofrog]

How do you know that are non-DIR divers?

I mean just a quick browse of the cavediver.net accidents report section:

"Tulum Accident, a solo russian diver"	Solo diving
Ginnie death 4/12/22	Solo diving, improper mix at depth
3 Polish divers missing in mining cave.	Multiple training fatalities
Accident Report - Vaca Ha 2020	Solo
cave explorer did not return	Solo
Diver?s body recovered at Merritts Mill Pond	Solo
Cave Diving Accident in Mallorca - Sa Piqueta
Cave Diver dies in Three Country Systems (UK)	Solo?
Manatee Springs fatality	Blocked exit
Accident in Cenote Kalimba Nov 2018	Gas Management
R?surgence de la Marnade nel Gard	Deco/MI
Accident in France (Ressel)	Solo
Accident in Source de Marchepied	O2 disconnected/hypoxic bailout
Cave Deaths in Greece	recreational divers
Eagles Nest Incident	not sure, didn't look like DIR though
Solo diver out of air death in Mexico	Solo

8 out of the 16 are solo so 100% not DIR. 1 was recreational diving so not DIR. At first glance, it appears most (if not all) were not DIR divers, that being said some of that is based on speculation in the comments.

So based on this dataset I think it's safe to say that _at_least_ 56% of the incidents on the first page of cavediver.net accidents section were not diving with the DIR system and procedures and that actual number is likely 100%

 

[Germie]

When are you DIR trained? I have done some DIR courses with TDI and IANTD. There are everywhere DIR courses. My courses are partly DIR, of course the team approach, but I also teach self sufficient/solo. There is more DIR than only done a course. That is what I want to say.

And about statistics: what amount of divers is then DIR trained? Is that only 1 or 2%? What do then 20 accidents of which only 2 are done by DIR divers say?

Sidemount in open water is not dir? Ok, so it is less safe? I dive sidemount in open water sometimes. Why? To test things for cave diving, or sometimes just for fun. And sometimes I dive my Sidekick in open water in shallows for taking pictures of fish under trees. A DIR diver cannot do that then And I am happy I can do that then. And also can dive DIR in other dives. So if I die during a dive, the conclusion of the reason will depends on the equipment and if I am solo or not.

 

[PfcAJ]

“I don’t like what DIR is so I’ll just make up my own definition of DIR”

 

[Wibble]

Yes, I’m familiar with the concept having dove in that configuration myself albeit with my 3L valves up. Did you have a point though? It doesn’t seem like you actually read my post so I’m starting to think you’re just trolling.

Making the point that sidemounted bailout is with bungees otherwise it’s normal stage mounted.

The definition of Sidemount bailout wasn’t clear in your post

 

[ginti]

I mean just a quick browse of the cavediver.net accidents report section:

"Tulum Accident, a solo russian diver"	Solo diving
Ginnie death 4/12/22	Solo diving, improper mix at depth
3 Polish divers missing in mining cave.	Multiple training fatalities
Accident Report - Vaca Ha 2020	Solo
cave explorer did not return	Solo
Diver?s body recovered at Merritts Mill Pond	Solo
Cave Diving Accident in Mallorca - Sa Piqueta
Cave Diver dies in Three Country Systems (UK)	Solo?
Manatee Springs fatality	Blocked exit
Accident in Cenote Kalimba Nov 2018	Gas Management
R?surgence de la Marnade nel Gard	Deco/MI
Accident in France (Ressel)	Solo
Accident in Source de Marchepied	O2 disconnected/hypoxic bailout
Cave Deaths in Greece	recreational divers
Eagles Nest Incident	not sure, didn't look like DIR though
Solo diver out of air death in Mexico	Solo

8 out of the 16 are solo so 100% not DIR. 1 was recreational diving so not DIR. At first glance, it appears most (if not all) were not DIR divers, that being said some of that is based on speculation in the comments.

So based on this dataset I think it's safe to say that _at_least_ 56% of the incidents on the first page of cavediver.net accidents section were not diving with the DIR system and procedures and that actual number is likely 100%

And the three polish weren't DIR too. I am sure because the report of that accident is on scubaboard.

However, this way of looking at the data is wrong. If you want to ensure that DIR divers are safer than the others, the percentage of DIR deaths (respect to all the deaths) should be lower than the percentage of the DIR divers (within the community). Do we know these percentages? I don't think so, especially the latter...

EDIT: Knowing these percentage is just the first step. A lot more analysis is needed to arrive at a conclusion... Really not worth it.

 

[ginti]

When are you DIR trained? I have done some DIR courses with TDI and IANTD. There are everywhere DIR courses. My courses are partly DIR, of course the team approach, but I also teach self sufficient/

Self sufficient is DIR. Otherwise, how would you go out of a cave while rescuing your unconscious buddy in a team of two people?

solo.

Solo isn't DIR, we agree here

Sidemount in open water is not dir? Ok, so it is less safe? I dive sidemount in open water sometimes. Why? To test things for cave diving,

This would be DIR. Testing equipment in easy environment is always a good idea, especially if the test may pose risks during the dive.

or sometimes just for fun.

This a bit less. But if you are trained and you know what you are doing, I doubt anyone will ever complain about it. Take it easy

The point here is another one: a DIR diver most likely wouldn't want to do it. I would grab a single or a double back mounted tank, as most of my friends.

And sometimes I dive my Sidekick in open water in shallows for taking pictures of fish under trees. A DIR diver cannot do that then

Again, if one is trained and knows what to do, that would be fine. But again, a DIR diver probably wouldn't want to do it, except if that's the only rebreather he/she owns (and for some reasons REALLY needs to avoid bubbles)

And I am happy I can do that then. And also can dive DIR in other dives. So if I die during a dive, the conclusion of the reason will depends on the equipment and if I am solo or not.

DIR is a philosophy (with a horrible and arrogant name, by the way). It isn't an equipment configuration or a set of training standards. The way you write, that philosophy isn't yours. Which, in my opinion, is perfectly fine and doesn't make you a worse diver. You are actually surely better than me (I would bet on it). It's just not your philosophy, that simple

 

[loosenit2]

I mean just a quick browse of the cavediver.net accidents report section:

"Tulum Accident, a solo russian diver"	Solo diving
Ginnie death 4/12/22	Solo diving, improper mix at depth
3 Polish divers missing in mining cave.	Multiple training fatalities
Accident Report - Vaca Ha 2020	Solo
cave explorer did not return	Solo
Diver?s body recovered at Merritts Mill Pond	Solo
Cave Diving Accident in Mallorca - Sa Piqueta
Cave Diver dies in Three Country Systems (UK)	Solo?
Manatee Springs fatality	Blocked exit
Accident in Cenote Kalimba Nov 2018	Gas Management
R?surgence de la Marnade nel Gard	Deco/MI
Accident in France (Ressel)	Solo
Accident in Source de Marchepied	O2 disconnected/hypoxic bailout
Cave Deaths in Greece	recreational divers
Eagles Nest Incident	not sure, didn't look like DIR though
Solo diver out of air death in Mexico	Solo

8 out of the 16 are solo so 100% not DIR. 1 was recreational diving so not DIR. At first glance, it appears most (if not all) were not DIR divers, that being said some of that is based on speculation in the comments.

So based on this dataset I think it's safe to say that _at_least_ 56% of the incidents on the first page of cavediver.net accidents section were not diving with the DIR system and procedures and that actual number is likely 100%

great, now normalize this data. What % of divers dive DIR? if the number is 10% and 20% of accidents/incidents occur with DIR dives there is a problem. If 10% are DIR and 5% of accidents and incidents are DIR divers it would be an indication that DIR is effective at reducing accidents/incidents.

Not bashing DIR, just trying to keep data in context. There is a lot of invalid conclusions drawn from data throughout society.

Yes I realize that there is virtually no way to gather this data because the governance structure of scuba diving does not allow it, except perhaps with BSAC who seem to be a lot better at it.

On another note, I have done some DIR diving courses and prescribe to a lot, but not all of the DIR tenants, but from a marketing perspective Doing it Right is a terrible slogan, it implies that every other way of doing it is wrong. You don't win a lot of friends by telling them if they don't do it your way they are doing it wrong.