DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[lostsheep]

Stereotyping wasn’t really my intent but fair enough. I am definitely a little jaded because of some of the attitudes from my local group; I should be more acknowledging that others aren’t the same way and check my own biases.

 

[Adobo]

I call BS; It probably seems that way because of the exclusive policies of the Escapade; they won’t take anyone except GUE and the occasional AOW class. We don't exactly have a lot of tech boats around here so that leaves Lobos and Monestary.

I wasn’t even talking about the escapade and tech dives. I was talking about Pt Lobos. The usual conversation in the parking lot is:

Me: ”how was your dive?”
Other diver: “Eh, vis was so so at middle reef. How was your dive?”
Me: “Pretty good. Vis was 30+ feet at Beto’s reef.”

I am sure other people go to Beto’s or 3 sisters. (Or even the road and twin peaks). The only people I ever ran into doing those dives regularly were GUE people. My larger point though is that falling off the back of the boat to do a dive in Hawaii is a very different thing than doing a dive even to Cannery point wall. Whereas I regularly see new divers diving just fine in clear vis and ”warm waters” in Hawaii, it takes a more seasoned/proficient diver to get to the more advanced sites in Pt Lobos. And Fundies goes a long way in helping newer divers get that proficiency.

 

[lostsheep]

I wasn’t even talking about the escapade and tech dives. I was talking about Pt Lobos. The usual conversation in the parking lot is:

Me: ”how was your dive?”
Other diver: “Eh, vis was so so at middle reef. How was your dive?”
Me: “Pretty good. Vis was 30+ feet at Beto’s reef.”

I am sure other people go to Beto’s or 3 sisters. (Or even the road and twin peaks). The only people I ever ran into doing those dives regularly were GUE people. My larger point though is that falling off the back of the boat to do a dive in Hawaii is a very different thing than doing a dive even to Cannery point wall. Whereas I regularly see new divers diving just fine in clear vis and ”warm waters” in Hawaii, it takes a more seasoned/proficient diver to get to the more advanced sites in Pt Lobos. And Fundies goes a long way in helping newer divers get that proficiency.

Sounds a little bit like you are speaking past tense but if not, and you dive with strokes, I am there most weekends. BTW, twin peaks / great pinnacle was about 30' last saturday...will check again this Saturday.

Fundies helped get me out to Sisters, Taco, Q-tip, etc., other agencies got me to the bottom of Twin Peaks and Great Pinnacle.

 

[crofrog]

The ones that are non-DIR also don't die more often. An eye opener.

I'm interested in the research you have to support that. WKPP has a pretty stellar safety record, Stratis Kas's book "Close Calls" was pretty eye opening.

I'm not sure exactly but it seems like the last few incidents at Ginnie and Tulum have all been non-DIR divers.

 

[flymolo]

I'm interested in the research you have to support that. WKPP has a pretty stellar safety record, Stratis Kas's book "Close Calls" was pretty eye opening.

I'm not sure exactly but it seems like the last few incidents at Ginnie and Tulum have all been non-DIR divers.

and almost all, if not all, were solo

 

[jadairiii]

There are GUE techniques ........I flat out reject.

Like what? Just interested.

 

[Germie]

How do you know that are non-DIR divers? That is a first question. If you dive sidemount, it is non-DIR? Hmm, nowadays sidemount is also DIR. If you take oxygen at 30m depth and die, is that non-DIR? Hmm, seems just to be a human mistake of failure not to analyse gases and/or label wrong.

Why go from 'dangerous' divecomputers and ratio deco and deco on the fly to the same as other agencies already teach for years: make a plan, adjust when needed, pragmatic deco, etc? The biggest problem in deco by head is the human. Not every human is able to calculate under water as good as needed. The human is the biggest problem in diving, they make mistakes.

Do statistics show that padi divers have more accidents than gue divers? Or tdi more than ise or iantd? No. When are you a dir-diver? Dir is a mindset. That can also be done with a normal (rental) bcd on a recreational sportsdivertrip.

If I die in a cave, am I a DIR diver or not? I think I am in most cases, but some will say no. I have cards from all kind of agencies. So what kind of diver am I? Is DIR only done by gue divers? No, absolutely not.
10 years ago, ccr and sidemount was not dir, now it is because it is teached by every agency? The agencies that already teached it, are not dir and the newer ones are dir?
Take the best equipment for the dive is DIR, isn't it? Make a diveplan is DIR, isn't it?

Tell me why 18/45 is a better gas for 56m than an 18/35. Is there a difference in safety if you dive to 60m when diving a 18/45-ean50-100% instead of 20/35-ean40-ean80? Explain me why?

Can DIR divers do no mount restrictions? If you really follow the DIR rules, no, they can't as in the no mount restrictions, you dive solo. Same with wreck penetration in some cases. So, is dive safety inherent with DIR or is it inherent with depth, gases, overhead, etc? If you dive to 5m in overhead, the risks are for sure lower than if you dive to 5m depth in a cave.

What did DIR well? They described how equipment can be used in the same way for every diver. The longhose on the right post, the backup on the left, etc. This means that if you have a problem with reaching valves your buddy knows what valve to close without thinking. (recreational dir divers cannot reach valves always on single tanks). If someone made a different configuration, you will close the wrong valve probably.

Streamlining of equipment, every agency writes about it. Absolutely a good point. But sometimes you see regional differences. Bailouts for ccr as sidemounts, I saw this for the first time in high flow caves in Florida. In France, most times you don't see this as there is no flow most times. The caves are wide, so what is the problem of bailouts carried as normal oc stages? Is it wrong? Do you die?

If you go to Mexico, they think there they invited cavediving. If you go to Florida, they think they invited cavediving, if you go to France, they think they invited cavediving. So you have regional differences. In Florida sidemount with steels, in France you see ali's and steels, mexico ali's. I dive a drysuit with ali's in sidemount. I can carry my bailouts on my ccr sidemount, but it is faster and easier to carry them as normal oc stages, so yes, I also do that sometimes. I just do what is needed for the dive.

Gue evolved over 10 years from only bottomtimes, no sidemount, no ccr to what oher agencies already did: computers, sidemount and ccr. If you see gue as 'DIR', then 'DIR' evolved over the years. From black to pink, from no sidemount to sidemount, from no ccr to ccr, from no computer to computer. The oc hogarthian style was already there before the word DIR was invented.

So I think it is good for every diver to look further than only what is teached. Be a thinking diver and of course plan, follow plan and analyse gases, do in water updates, etc. DIR is way much wider than only a certification or agency.

And remember: every diver can die under water, sometimes without making mistakes, just by bad luck.

 

[Wibble]

Smaller and lighter till you add bailout. Which the GUE config already has.

For a shallow NDL or light deco dive (~30m/100ft) you don’t need all that bailout. So unnecessarily heavy.

For a 45m/150ft dive you need two bailout gasses — inc deco gas. Again unnecessarily heavy.

For a 60m/200ft dive it becomes more similar as you’d need larger amounts of bottom gas. May be looking at two deco bailout gasses.

Beyond that it’s back to loads of team bailout or a bailout rebreather.

 

[ginti]

How do you know that are non-DIR divers?

I get your point, boundaries are very blurred. And, by the way, some GUE divers do no mount restrictions. If it's the right tool, just use it.

However, once you reach these levels of diving, I would say that a DIR diver often participate in DIR projects. And, often (at least here in Europe), the people who die are not part of the DIR community based on what I hear. Now, what I hear isn't exactly the best scientific source, so I can't claim that DIR divers die less commonly than others underwater. But the opposite is true as well, and if you don't have data you can't claim that.

As a side note, the safety record of the wkpp is stellar, and we can't argue with that. That's a good hint of the safety record of DIR divers, but I think we both agree that we can't generalize.

 

[PfcAJ]

For a shallow NDL or light deco dive (~30m/100ft) you don’t need all that bailout. So unnecessarily heavy.

For a 45m/150ft dive you need two bailout gasses — inc deco gas. Again unnecessarily heavy.

For a 60m/200ft dive it becomes more similar as you’d need larger amounts of bottom gas. May be looking at two deco bailout gasses.

Beyond that it’s back to loads of team bailout or a bailout rebreather.

For a 100’ dive there’s no reason to take a rebreather.

For a 150’ dive, I’ll only have one tank clipped off. You’ll be managing two.

For a 200’ dive, you’ll have 3. Again, I’ll have one less to manage.

There’s never a case for team bailout and bailout rebreathers aren’t needed in all but the most complex of dives.