DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[Wibble]

I thiink you took what I was saying in the wrong way, maybe misread it. I firmly in the camp that DIR / GUE can and should be able to dive however they like. I have also said that no one is forcing anyone to dive under DIR / GUE principals. My point was, I think there is a lot of sour grapes mentality from the divers that can't dive to DIR / GUE standards, for whatever reason.

That might be a teensy bit patronising?

The vast majority of divers have never heard of DIR, GUE and flat trim. Ask people.

For those who don't dive in flat trim (+finning, buoyancy, you know, decent core skills)... Either they don't know how to do it as they've never been shown decent skills with their recreational background. Or there's a bunch of people who just go diving and just don't care. Often the wreckies who bring lump hammers.

The number of people who do know about DIR and GUE generally admire their exemplary skills and dedication to hours in quarries practising. Some of those people simply reject some of the GUE/DIR principles, such as extreme team diving, reliance on the team not self, the rigid standardisation, and some arcane planning. There's no arrogance; it's just they don't see the point.

 

[Adobo]

There was an incident in my neighborhood, I believe on the General, where two highly trained GUE divers got separated, had simultaneous entanglement issues. It was a shyt show. They had to sort it out themselves as solo divers. Buddy separation does happen. You cannot be guaranteed to have your buddy help you. Team diving can break down. And when it does, you better have the required redundancy. That doesn't mean you throw out team diving, but it does mean you address the worst case scenario and that is buddy separation with an emergency.

I don’t know what question you are answering. GUE doesn’t teach pony bottles or spare airs. GUE doesn’t teach taking off gear and putting on gear (on your knees, no less). GUE doesn’t teach bringing 3 dive computers (I have no idea how one figures out which one to use when all three say different things). These are all concepts that I have seen preached by solo divers for almost two decades in scubaboard. I will not comment on whether solo diving (and training for such) is good or bad. I will just say that it is not what GUE teaches. Full stop. And if you are a solo diver and start adopting GUE principles, don’t be surprised that during a solo dive, you find yourself in a situation where GUE principles are not sufficient or optimal to handle the situation.

 

[Adobo]

That might be a teensy bit patronising?

The vast majority of divers have never heard of DIR, GUE and flat trim. Ask people.

For those who don't dive in flat trim (+finning, buoyancy, you know, decent core skills)... Either they don't know how to do it as they've never been shown decent skills with their recreational background. Or there's a bunch of people who just go diving and just don't care. Often the wreckies who bring lump hammers.

The number of people who do know about DIR and GUE generally admire their exemplary skills and dedication to hours in quarries practising. Some of those people simply reject some of the GUE/DIR principles, such as extreme team diving, reliance on the team not self, the rigid standardisation, and some arcane planning. There's no arrogance; it's just they don't see the point.

I have done basically two kinds of diving in my life. One is with GUE divers. This is not by design but rather a function of where I am. When I am at home, all my dive buddies are GUE trained. If I need someone to dive with, I call one of my friends and set up a dive. I have also dived in cave country. Mexico and Florida. The thing is, I wouldn’t set up a cave diving trip without knowing I will have dive buddies. So I would only orchestrate that kind of trip with other GUE divers who are available to do the trip/dives.

The other kind of diving I have done is cattle boat diving in Hawaii. I am on such a trip as we speak. BTW, I ******* hate cattle boat diving with DMs. These guys somehow think speed swimming from one rock to another is somehow the enjoyable way to dive. Different bitchfest for a different thread. Anyway, in these cattleboat dives is where I about the only time I get to interact with non-GUE divers in the real world. (I interact with them plenty in the inter webs). As you said, in the real world, regular (non-GUE trained) divers either don’t know about GUE or don’t give a crap about it. They don’t care about trim, they don’t care about long hoses. They don’t care about any of the non-sense we argue about in scubaboard. Nothing. All they care about is they are on vacation and having a good time. That’s it. And its how it should be.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don’t know what question you are answering. GUE doesn’t teach pony bottles or spare airs. GUE doesn’t teach taking off gear and putting on gear (on your knees, no less). GUE doesn’t teach bringing 3 dive computers (I have no idea how one figures out which one to use when all three say different things). These are all concepts that I have seen preached by solo divers for almost two decades in scubaboard. I will not comment on whether solo diving (and training for such) is good or bad. I will just say that it is not what GUE teaches. Full stop. And if you are a solo diver and start adopting GUE principles, don’t be surprised that during a solo dive, you find yourself in a situation where GUE principles are not sufficient or optimal to handle the situation.

I don't know why you are bringing up pony bottles or spare airs devices to help you drown at a shallower depth. Buddy separation does happen along with emergencies. There is some wisdom in learning how to resolve issues individually, especially as safety focused GUE is. And yes, exactly what you said. In that scenario, GUE principles are insufficient. We are discussing GUE divers following GUE principles on a dive. They had to work outside their training to resolve their respective issues. There was a word doc writeup that I was able to find. See attached and let me know if you have a different conclusion about the importance of solving one's own issues and not depending on a teammate.

 

[Adobo]

I don't know why you are bringing up pony bottles or spare airs devices to help you drown at a shallower depth. Buddy separation does happen along with emergencies. There is some wisdom in learning how to resolve issues individually, especially as safety focused GUE is. And yes, exactly what you said. In that scenario, GUE principles are insufficient. We are discussing GUE divers following GUE principles on a dive. They had to work outside their training to resolve their respective issues. There was a word doc writeup, but I can't find it anymore.

You’re engaged in a completely different conversation than I am. The conversation I was having with someone else is this - a solo diver is interested in GUE / DIR principles. My point is, adopt GUE principles with caution as it was not designed for the solo diving. That’s it.

Your conversation is about team oriented divers being able to be self sufficient. That’s a different topic altogether. It’s a fair question/topic to discuss with GUE divers. Perhaps create another thread so that conversation can be the focus? I only have one thought on it as I only have a minute to respond - I reject the premise that GUE divers are any less self sufficient just because their approach is team diving.

 

[tursiops]

I reject the premise that GUE divers are any less self sufficient just because their approach is team diving.

You need to explain this oxymoron.

 

[johndiver999]

First, GUE training was never envisioned to be elite or exclusionary. Plenty of average people who are mediocre divers (including me) have taken GUE classes. Not all become super duper divers (just like I did not become a super duper diver) but most if not all have gotten benefit. All it takes to get into a GUE class is to have money, time and a willingness to listen and learn for a few days.

Second, there is no rule that says one must only dive with their GUE buddies. My dive mentor and eventual tech 1 buddy probably dives as much with non-GUE trained new people as he dives with GUE trained people. That’s how he found me in scubaboard many years ago - he saw a bumbling idiot posting non-sense in the internet and offered to dive with me. I myself have no hang ups with diving with other people who are not GUE trained. The only thing is I don’t like diving with morons (I would hate to dive with someone who is just like me) and the more complex the dive becomes, the more I want to be diving with someone who has similar training, equipment and procedures. I hope we don’t have to argue about why the last sentence makes sense.

I have seen these opinions in scubaboard for over 10 years now. People claiming what GUE /DiR is like and what these divers are like. It’s kind of like a person from Mississippi who has never been, describing what California and Californians are like. It’s all stereotypes.

yes my opinion is based on reading primarily. It seems strange to get your feather ruffled when the reality is that the op specifically requested input from NON gue divers.

 

[johndiver999]

You need to explain this oxymoron.

Well if they don’t take redundant gear for self sufficiency then how can someone argue that they are self sufficient? You gotta pick a side, dependent on the team or not, it seems?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Perhaps create another thread so that conversation can be the focus?

Oh, the shyte show that would be. I think the mods would prefer I didn't. LOL

 

[PfcAJ]

You need to explain this oxymoron.

I’ll explain it.

We’re super self sufficient. I can do anything needed in absence of my buddy.

The buddy is there to make things better and to double check my work. As an example, I certainly CAN switch gas without a buddy, for instance. I choose to include him just in case I make a mistake.

We just had a tragic fatality at Ginnie where a diver breathed oxygen at depth. A buddy might have been able to intervene.