DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[Wibble]

@Wibble
The GUE world is not black and white, too. GUE does not promote their way of diving as one-size-fit-all. GUE is not as strict as you always tell us.
You are always talking about GUE and DIR without having any clue about it. Why don't you start reading e.g. the in depth GUE blog? There you can see, that GUE is fully aware of the different ways to approach diving.
At latest when attending to a Cave 2 class you will be tought that you have to be a "thinking diver". And this also means, that there usually is not only a single way to face a problem. One of the main messages is, that if you want to dive a special environment, take the right tool for the job. This includes sidemount and even sidemount rebreathers (although GUE does not teach SM rebreather classes up to now, and maybe never will).

Hmmm.

At the early stages of technical training, GUE is very rigid. They may well take a chill pill in their most advanced courses -- Cave2 is advanced -- but the system stands.

Sidemount requires Cave2

The GUE Cave Sidemount provides an opportunity for experienced GUE Cave 2 divers to familiarize themselves with side mount equipment configuration. A sidemount configuration provides an opportunity to experience, enjoy and explore areas that are too small for the standard GUE backmount configuration.

Sidemount's relegated to a special tool for specific tasks. Outside of GUE it's a perfectly good general purpose tool for all kinds of diving.

There's a ton of other perfectly acceptable techniques used safely across the world by many divers. Small sidemount. Solo. Lean left, rich right. Normal rebreathers. Specialist rebreathers. Deep air. Loose buddies, solo but together. Independent diving. Must have standardisation.


The standard riposte is to use the "you need to be in the system to fully appreciate it". Non-GUE people have the impression that it's a very rigid system. There's now 860 responses to this thread and it's not really doing much to change my mind (which was largely made up from my own Fundies experience).

 

[RedSix]

Sidemount requires Cave2

This is true, if you want to do the sidemount class with GUE it requires you to have done the Cave 2. But you have to keep in mind, that the "sidemount" GUE class is a bit more than an open water sidemount class. The teached contents go well beyond Cave 2. Same with Cave DPV, it is not only a DPV class in a Cave.
First: do you need to have done a class or a cert for diving sidemount? There is no diving / DIR / GUE police. So you can actually do what you want to do (certain dive spots might ask for a cert, but no agency).
Second: If you do a couple of classes with GUE, but at some point you decide to switch to sidemount and take a sidemount class with an other agency you will loose all your certs from GUE? No, you don't.
If you decide to go diving with a CDG guy and to adopt their style of diving, will you loose all your GUE certs? No, you will not.

There is one exception to this (at least I am only aware of this one): smoking
You might not loose your certs immediately, but it might happen, that you will not be able to get a renewal of your certs if somebody at the HQ knows of it.

 

[mariosx]

Want to hear another case where you will call me a liar?

I know that you don't claim that I call you a liar or whatever, but because it has been some drama in the previous post, I would like to clarify that I believe this experience of yours as you described it.
What I cannot accept easily is that the diver of previous example finished a GUE-F class. I consider it more probable for him to have dropped/failed the class the first day, or simply even lying to you. I have met 2 people lying together about getting a tech pass in GUE-F, diving "DIR"-like gear and dropping some terms, though obviously some things were very off (skipping steps in the protocol, overemphasizing some things, confusing the "E"'s in GUE-EDGE, etc). I never challenged them, because I truly don't care enough, but I made certain with my friend to not buddy with them. My friend (GUE T1 or T2 at that moment) asked them about their instructor and they both were like "I don't remember his name... ehm... he was a friend of Jared...".
I assume that a sad non-zero amount of divers and wannabes read a lot in this forum just to pretend something they aren't and endanger anybody in the process, while actually getting into a GUE-F class might be far more easier process.
Are you sure that that guy took a GUE-F class, or he just claimed to do so? Did he showed a GUE card etc?

I had a student come to me for beginning tech training. In our opening Intro to Tech dives, I saw he needed a lot of work on certain skills. It took him a long time to get the buoyancy and skills needed for the valve drill especially, but he got there, and eventually he became a very good technical diver.

It wasn't until much later that he happened to discuss his experience with GUE Fundamentals before he came to me for Intro to Tech.

I am also guilty myself of that. I am at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to GUE. I have a simple GUE-F rec pass with doubles (no drysuit), although I came close for a tec pass. Due to a lot of work the past 18 months, relocating to a much colder country were drysuit is necessary, and some other expenses that have delayed ordering a drysuit, I have been left depressingly dry for months. After my GUE-F I had a commendable trim and buoyancy skills for a newbie with less than 70 dives. After 8-9 months without a single dive I finally went for a dive with a GUE buddy and a GUE-I friend, and oh boy, I haven't sucked more in my life. I though I was in 0 trim, when in reality I was at 45 degrees. I attempted S-drills and V-drills and I was missing steps, and even when I was focusing and doing them properly I was yoyoing well beyond the rec-pass limits.
After 3 dives, thankfully I returned back to "normal". Unfortunately, scuba is not like bicycle, at least for myself. I left it for almost a year, and my skills were extremely off, or should I say not calibrated. Your student might suffer from the same issues.

 

[ofg-1]

In my opinion, this discussion has not only reached the beating a dead horse to a pulp phase, but we have cut the horse into pieces,, fed the pieces to the hyenas in the zoo, scooped up all the hyena poop, put it in a compost heap, used the compost to grow a banana tree, fed the bananas to a group of howler monkeys, and are now just watching the monkeys fling their poop at each other.

If you like GUE, great! If you don't, great!

Soon, the monkeys will run out of poop to fling and we will have to compost monkey poop to keep going.

 

[LiteHedded]

In my opinion, this discussion has not only reached the beating a dead horse to a pulp phase, but we have cut the horse into pieces,, fed the pieces to the hyenas in the zoo, scooped up all the hyena poop, put it in a compost heap, used the compost to grow a banana tree, fed the bananas to a group of howler monkeys, and are now just watching the monkeys fling their poop at each other.

If you like GUE, great! If you don't, great!

Soon, the monkeys will run out of poop to fling and we will have to compost monkey poop to keep going.

agreed John. what a silly thing to even care this much about. It's a class you learn to do scuba diving. ...for fun. take it from whoever you want...

 

[AJ]

I had a student come to me for beginning tech training. In our opening Intro to Tech dives, I saw he needed a lot of work on certain skills. It took him a long time to get the buoyancy and skills needed for the valve drill especially, but he got there, and eventually he became a very good technical diver.

I passed Fundies with Tech, but failed (provisional) DPV 1 because I could not do the valve drill. I did not blame GUE, but myself for not passing. GUE has standards I did not meet, simple as that.

Turned out later I had severe back issues which made me quit doubles diving and GUE all together because I will never be able to do a decent valve drill. I'am a happy CCR diver now, but still glad I did GUE training. It made me a better diver.

 

[mariosx]

In my opinion, this discussion has not only reached the beating a dead horse to a pulp phase, but we have cut the horse into pieces,, fed the pieces to the hyenas in the zoo, scooped up all the hyena poop, put it in a compost heap, used the compost to grow a banana tree, fed the bananas to a group of howler monkeys, and are now just watching the monkeys fling their poop at each other.

If you like GUE, great! If you don't, great!

Soon, the monkeys will run out of poop to fling and we will have to compost monkey poop to keep going.

I see no problem with monkeys fling poop as long as they are doing it right.

 

[lostsheep]

@Wibble
GUE does not promote their way of diving as one-size-fits-all.

At latest when attending to a Cave 2 class you will be tought that you have to be a "thinking diver"

The preface from DIR Fundamentals of Better Diving seems to insinuate that one gear configuration is applicable to all environments and all levels of divers. Im not against that configuration , just pointing out that they are promoting a “one size fits all” …in the very first paragraph of the text book no less.

I’ve always found the “thinking diver” language to be an odd choice for a system with relatively rigid SOPs. If you’re not thinking about what gear to use or what is the best method to use, what exactly is the “thinking diver” contemplating? Compliance and contemplation are not inherently at odds with one another but the former could very likely be a symptom to indicate a lack of the latter.

I did overhear an experienced GUE diver who was assisting with a class refer to a fundies class as “making more drones”. I know how I felt hearing that, I wonder what they would think about it?

 

[Wibble]

I passed Fundies with Tech, but failed (provisional) DPV 1 because I could not do the valve drill. I did not blame GUE, but myself for not passing. GUE has standards I did not meet, simple as that.

Turned out later I had severe back issues which made me quit doubles diving and GUE all together because I will never be able to do a decent valve drill. I'am a happy CCR diver now, but still glad I did GUE training. It made me a better diver.

A perfect Sidemount candidate.

Everything in front, carry one cylinder at a time, go diving. Simples.

 

[Wibble]

The preface from DIR Fundamentals of Better Diving seems to insinuate that one gear configuration is applicable to all environments and all levels of divers. Im not against that configuration , just pointing out that they are promoting a “one size fits all” …in the very first paragraph of the text book no less.

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I’ve always found the “thinking diver” language to be an odd choice for a system with relatively rigid SOPs. If you’re not thinking about what gear to use or what is the best method to use, what exactly is the “thinking diver” contemplating? Compliance and contemplation are not inherently at odds with one another but the former could very likely be a symptom to indicate a lack of the latter.

I did overhear an experienced GUE diver who was assisting with a class refer to a fundies class as “making more drones”. I know how I felt hearing that, I wonder what they would think about it?

Of course "people with immeasurably more experience and skills than me" have designed the perfect system for all occasions.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth, people and dive targets are all different. Some people have back and mobility problems and can't do the contortions for shutdowns. Some might even be older people. Others couldn't give two damns and a pound of monkey dung about what DIR and their agencies think.

Surprisingly, throughout the world people are successfully diving to all the depths and targets that GUE et al are doing, but with vastly different kit configurations. Just as safe. Just as successfully. Often more simply and a lot more streamlined.

Do wonder if DIR has past its zenith.