DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think maybe you misunderstood what beester was trying to say.

He was referring to newly minted GUE fundies divers as being more likely to give GUE a bad name by being too critical of others and having a less nuanced perspective, making it seem more cult-y.

In other words, the reason why you talk about GUE being a cult, is probably because of some inexperienced loud mouth divers who took a GUE class and think they know it all, when actually the experienced GUE divers/instructors and the general community is anything but a cult.

Yes, they have a zero tolerance for smoking. Call it exclusionist if you want. They're not trying to be for everyone. I understand the reasoning for not wanting to associate with divers that willingly harm their lungs and put themselves at unnecessary risk. Especially considering the goal of GUE to be at the forefront of exploration with pretty aggressive diving - it makes sense to focus on minimizing risk.

Telling people they need to STFU is a far different message than what you wrote.

The former will more likely result in a reaction of GFY. The latter more likely give a person pause.

This reminds me of those skits of translating rude responses into something business appropriate to put in email.

 

[flymolo]

Ahhh, nothing like the suppression of free speech to make me want to take a GUE course and join their cult, I mean community. Statements like this is why many will never go over to GUE.

Now to answer the OP as this ridiculous thread has drifted away from that question, as a rec and tech instructor, it is my personal philosophy to stay updated on the current trends in diving as well as the past. I believe any educator should do this no matter the subject. This is why I watch GUE threads and read articles from them. I have also had many a conversations with GUE instructors. Some were great and others were acting more like cult leaders. Same with my experience with UTD instructors, ITs and IEs. I have also seen some GUE/UTD divers and instructors whose skills were not as advertised.

So why have I not taken a GUE course? Because I do not agree with all of their standards and gear configs. I also happen to be a smoker (yes I know it is bad for me, I can read and hear it from doctors all the time). This alone means I can't take a course. While many on here say GUE isn't meant to be exclusionary, it is.

Also, as a sidemount specialist, I find it laughable that the GUE sidemount course is only a cave course. You can't do any of the earlier courses in SM. Why not? You can do your valve shut downs and rely on a teammate to tell you where your bubbles are coming from while I can feel any bubbles and easily see where they are originating from. Which do you find to be safer? For the record I did my 50m tech course in BM doubles..as soon as it was over, I was back in SM as it just makes more sense while also being a more streamlined and hydrodynamic profile.

I find the SM config to be the most "DIR" config there is but that is just me. Oh and I also don't dive a JJ so that is another strike against me.

Lol, relax man

 

[drrich2]

Yes, they have a zero tolerance for smoking. Call it exclusionist if you want. They're not trying to be for everyone. I understand the reasoning for not wanting to associate with divers that willingly harm their lungs and put themselves at unnecessary risk. Especially considering the goal of GUE to be at the forefront of exploration with pretty aggressive diving - it makes sense to focus on minimizing risk.

Is smoking notably more compromising (or more the result of 'life choices') than being obese or sedentary? Is it rational to exclude all smokers when the extent of smoking and its effects on people vary widely? While GUE offers a path to pretty aggressive diving and exploration, not all GUE divers will push to the more demanding limits of diving.

There's some gray area between requiring appropriate fitness to dive and unnecessarily elitist/exclusionary practices.

 

[steinbil]

Telling people they need to STFU is a far different message than what you wrote.

The former will more likely result in a reaction of GFY. The latter more likely give a person pause.

This reminds me of those skits of translating rude responses into something business appropriate to put in email.

Come on, man. One man expressing his frustrations, in a crass tone, over a tendency of new "converts" to preach too much (with limited knowledge), instead of listening is turned into "oppression of free speech" by a community. I would say my description is much more fair than ScubaWithTurk's.

 

[steinbil]

Is smoking notably more compromising (or more the result of 'life choices') than being obese or sedentary? Is it rational to exclude all smokers when the extent of smoking and its effects on people vary widely?

Yes. There are many conditions that could lead to people being overweight. No conditions lead you to smoke, it's purely a choice. And the effect of smoking is always directly detrimental to your lungs. There are many people that are overweight that have better fitness than me. I'm pretty sure there are not many smokers with better lung health than me.

If people have conditions that lead them to be overweight, should they dive? I have no idea, I'll leave that to the medical professionals.

GUE also advocates focusing on exercise and diet to improve fitness, and they have fitness requirements.

Do I understand that the mentality of choosing to smoke does not align with the attitudes GUE promotes - yes.

 

[Jake 10]

1.) I try to acquire a decent, well-rounded grasp of recreational scuba diving. Not tech., no dive professional credentials, etc... So when an agency becomes known in the North America and Caribbean region by impact (real or potential on the hobby), I wonder what the 'buzz' is about.

2.) GUE Fundamentals has often been cited as an excellent self-improvement course for divers, as opposed to pursuing a path to become a dive master, instructor, the PADI Master Scuba Diver qualification, etc...

3.) We know GUE draws on DIR and considerable thought goes into how they do things, so the opportunity to learn from their wisdom may be there. Why not hear what they've got to say?

ditto !

 

[The Chairman]

Why do the non-GUE want to know more about GUE? Natural curiosity about an agency that claims superiority.

On the first page, @drrich2 suggested that they looked to DIR for direction, and I disagree with that. DIR became very divisive and toxic due to GI3's rants and a few divers wanting to emulate his trash talking persona. GUE has evolved away from that mindset while maintaining the Hogarthian mentality of minimalism and striving to be team oriented. To a large extent, they succeeded with a focus on safe diving and quick to squash vitriol by any of their students.

All agencies claim to be the best. All of them have their assets and downsides. I like to learn about them all.

 

[San Diego Climber]

Why do the non-GUE want to know more about GUE? Natural curiosity about an agency that claims superiority.

On the first page, @drrich2 suggested that they looked to DIR for direction, and I disagree with that. DIR became very divisive and toxic due to GI3's rants and a few divers wanting to emulate his trash talking persona. GUE has evolved away from that mindset while maintaining the Hogarthian mentality of minimalism and striving to be team oriented. To a large extent, they succeeded with a focus on safe diving and quick to squash vitriol by any of their students.

All agencies claim to be the best. All of them have their assets and downsides. I like to learn about them all.

Just want to point out that in my experience in classes with a few renowned instructors in ocean, cave, and/or CCR diving that all of them had similar messaging of "is this the absolute best system for every situation? it might not be; is it one way of doing things consistently that works pretty well across a lot of scenarios? yes."

I'm but a GUE toddler (only 4 years in) so I only know the historical messaging/attitudes as hearsay but at least now it doesn't proclaim superiority.

Of course my sample size isn't the entire instructional or diver community so YMMV!

 

[nadwidny]

I also happen to be a smoker (yes I know it is bad for me, I can read and hear it from doctors all the time). This alone means I can't take a course. While many on here say GUE isn't meant to be exclusionary, it is.

On my OC trimix course in 1999 my instructor had smokers excluded from his courses. IANTD. It's not just a GUE thing and has been around a long time.

 

[Cheizz]

I think it's those 'newly converted GUE-divers' that give GUE a bad rep. And then there are those extreme clubs like UTD (not GUE, I know, but the two get confused often), that seem to take standardization as a goal on its own (instead of a means to an end: safety).

Just my view from the outside in.