DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[PfcAJ]

People are collecting cards and combine al their cards. If you want to dive with oc it would make sense to do oc dpv training.

If your goal is dpv diving with a rebreather, you should do the training with a rebreather.

I've seen diving gue divers a cave 2 and JJ in caves because a gue instructor told them that's ok. But they are not able to do scr mode with the JJ. Because they did never learnt. They bring oxygen to 50 meter depth so they can use it to plug in when they have an oxygen failure.

Or other GUE cave 2 en CCR 1 divers who are not using inflator hoses at their stages at all.

It's the same with CCR1 and tech 1. GUE ccr divers are allowed to do tech 1 level dives after ccr1 and 25 dives. But they do not even know how to set their perdix in ccr mode and when I told them how they should do the didn't switch setpoint during the dive.

I've seen enough things like that, these kind of things are happening because the never learnt to do the dives, only combining cards.

WIth cave 2 and tech 1 it was possible for me to dive with an unknown diver and do a tech1 or cave 2 dive. That is not possible anymore for me with the JJ.

A person could be a very good oc diver. But he could be a beginner with the rebreather. But if he combine al his cards he can do do cave dive, with dpv and ccr. This is happening a lot of times.

People spent a lot of time and money at gue oc training and believe that the can do the same and more complicated dives with 100 hours or less on the ccr...

If you want to dive with the ccr in caves, you should be able to handle the ccr in caves, choosing oc would be cheating (for me).

I see your point, and that’s really an issue with the JJCCR training program.

IMO at the levels you’re describing, a diver MUST be able to recognize when they don’t have all the puzzle pieces. If you don’t know how to operate your equipment, you shouldn’t be doing the dive regardless of what your card says. This is a game for grownups.

When I went through the RB80 course, we had to submit an outline to the instructor on how we were going to progress with the rebreather to get to where we want to be. We had a candid discussion about it and we made tweaks together. Sounds like that’s lacking in the CCR program.

 

[Wibble]

I see your point, and that’s really an issue with the JJCCR training program.

IMO at the levels you’re describing, a diver MUST be able to recognize when they don’t have all the puzzle pieces. If you don’t know how to operate your equipment, you shouldn’t be doing the dive regardless of what your card says. This is a game for grownups.

When I went through the RB80 course, we had to submit an outline to the instructor on how we were going to progress with the rebreather to get to where we want to be. We had a candid discussion about it and we made tweaks together. Sounds like that’s lacking in the CCR program.

Isn't the point that the RB80 is a highly specialised tool for cave diving whereas the JJ is a general-purpose rebreather + GUE mods which the vast majority of GUE people qualified on the GUE JJ will be doing?

As mentioned many times in this thread, the GUE JJ is heavily modified for a specific use which makes it sub-optimal for general-purpose diving when compared with a factory JJ.

 

[PfcAJ]

Isn't the point that the RB80 is a highly specialised tool for cave diving whereas the JJ is a general-purpose rebreather + GUE mods which the vast majority of GUE people qualified on the GUE JJ will be doing?

As mentioned many times in this thread, the GUE JJ is heavily modified for a specific use which makes it sub-optimal for general-purpose diving when compared with a factory JJ.

Idk my rb80 works just fine in the ocean.

 

[AJ]

That’s a totally reasonable and logical position for GUE to take.

And there it is You have to do things the GUE way or go take the highway, meaning other agencies. For me other agencies provided a better solution. In my case solutions outside of GUE because of back issues, I can't dive doubles (valve drill issues) anymore. GUE wasn't an option anymore for me and I really did not want to dive the GUE CCR anyhow, which limited my options with GUE from the start.

On topic: although I do not do GUE training anymore, I'am still interested in the way they do things. For instance, I use a modified GUE checklist with my JJ CCR because it's a better solution than any other I have seen till today. I use GUE EDGE because it works. I like things that are simple and work, not because of the branding. Don't care about branding.

 

[PfcAJ]

And there it is You have to do things the GUE way or go take the highway, meaning other agencies. For me other agencies provided a better solution. In my case solutions outside of GUE because of back issues, I can't dive doubles (valve drill issues) anymore. GUE wasn't an option anymore for me and I really did not want to dive the GUE CCR anyhow, which limited my options with GUE from the start.

On topic: although I do not do GUE training anymore, I'am still interested in the way they do things. For instance, I use a modified GUE checklist with my JJ CCR because it's a better solution than any other I have seen till today. I use GUE EDGE because it works. I like things that are simple and work, not because of the branding. Don't care about branding.

Yes, you have to do things according to agency standards when you’re taking classes from whatever agency you choose. They’re all like this, some are just less flexible than others.

It certainly has logic and reason though, and none of it is “don’t ask questions”.

 

[ginti]

I do not agree, scr mode is not learnt during gue CCR1. I think it should be required for cavediving with rebreather. I did spent a lot of time during iantd CCR cave at cave planning. I did not learn anything about caveplanning during ccr1.

I know a lot of GUE divers who are doing ccr cave diving without tools (scr mode) and knowledge (how to plan a cave dive with rebreather). I know that because I did dive with them. After the iantd ccr cave training I did understand what I was missing.

This is why there is a GUE CCR cave course. If people dive without the proper training, it is their fault, not of GUE.

Anyway, I don't dive CCR, so I cannot enter the technical details. I am just saying that they provide a complete path for their purpose, and if you need something that they do not offer - it's easy: just go somewhere else. But this is totally different from saying that they are wrong.

EDIT: I can see your point; there exists a legend that all GUE divers are good. In my experience, most (not all!) GUE divers indeed have excellent basic skills, but this is all I can say. Everything else isn't guaranteed at all, and your discussion about combining the cards and doing the dives without appropriate knowledge supports my point.

By the way, I would complain the same way if anyone would say that other agencies are "wrong". There are very few "right" and "wrong" things in diving training. The only "wrong" thing I can think of would be the promotion of totally unsafe practices, and no agencies do it (except for that one that offers "narcosis management"... but the topic gets a bit tricky, and it isn't related to this post)

 

[Matan]

People are collecting cards and combine al their cards. If you want to dive with oc it would make sense to do oc dpv training.

If your goal is dpv diving with a rebreather, you should do the training with a rebreather.

I've seen diving gue divers a cave 2 and JJ in caves because a gue instructor told them that's ok. But they are not able to do scr mode with the JJ. Because they did never learnt. They bring oxygen to 50 meter depth so they can use it to plug in when they have an oxygen failure.

Or other GUE cave 2 en CCR 1 divers who are not using inflator hoses at their stages at all.

Why not email HQ/Kiril about this? In my opinion this is where GUE "shines" i.e. you can really get proper response from the right people on this topic, and might even make a difference on the training standards. A while ago they modified the standards for example (I think I remember it like this) to mention that tech2 can be conducted in a cave if all students are cave2 and the instructor is also a cave2 instructor - probably due to similar logic to what you have. I would imagine something like "dpv cave can be conducted on a rebreather if all students are ccr cave and the instructor is also a ccr cave instructor" - you can make it happen email HQ.

It's the same with CCR1 and tech 1. GUE ccr divers are allowed to do tech 1 level dives after ccr1 and 25 dives. But they do not even know how to set their perdix in ccr mode and when I told them how they should do the didn't switch setpoint during the dive.

CCR1 is not a perdix manual class - I agree that generally a diver with a CCR and a perdix should know this - but with my loyal uwatec 330m and my JJ - why should I? seriously.
But again - you think this is something that should be covered during CCR1 training (for example an extra slide on dive computers when CCR diving)? you can make it happen email HQ.

A person could be a very good oc diver. But he could be a beginner with the rebreather.

People spent a lot of time and money at gue oc training and believe that the can do the same and more complicated dives with 100 hours or less on the ccr...

true and true - and I was told just that in the beginning of CCR1 - looks like GUE agrees with you and hence they've split the original CCR class. also the training materials and the actual class (at least for me) really emphasized how one should understand that even if you're T2++++ you are taking a huge step back and need to take your time with the unit. which makes perfect sense.



Matan.

 

[beester]

'do things how you think they are done best, but do it safe as we taught you' versus the almost militarized GUE way of doing things (don't ask why, just do it like this). Honestly, both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. I can't say one is better than the other. I still rely very much on my GUE training and even use some of the GUE procedures in my CCR diving.

I am an IANTD instructor and a GUE diver so I think I can chime in. IANTD also relies (like all agencies) on standards and procedures. If I'm teaching IANTD I also tell the students, let me first finish informing you on how we are going to train, do stuff during the course (or a specific procedure) and then after we've trained like this we can have an open discussion on what other ways to do this. GUE is not so dissimilar.

Don't take this the wrong way but you haven't really taken any technical classes with GUE so you have no way to compare. A fundies class typically is for sure more regimented, because you need to be taught they GUE language of procedures and checks, which cross over to all other courses and diving. Also I don't see there being a lot of room in discussing different ways of shooting an smb, doing a backkick or diving nitrox ;-)

That's different in the tech courses. I can assure you that if you are doing a C2, T2, CCR2 that there is plenty of room for deviation and open discussions on experienced doing things in different ways.

On the CCR topic I can more or less agree. I dive the jj in GUE setup because I'm currently doing mainly deep wreck dives and it works very well there, but one of my best buddies dives it in the classic style (because he's mainly a cave diver and I would too in that context), but still the basic JJ training I got was miles better on the GUE class than in the IANTD class I took ;-)

 

[beester]

I understand where Bart is coming from and there definately is some "normalization of deviance" at work here but on a personal diver level and maybe on GUE standards level.

Bart this has happened for ever. How many C1 divers I've seen (and I was one myself as well at a certain moment) taking stages and doing semi or even full C2 dives before they got the C2 cert? Plenty! How many divers do I know who never took DPV cave and are diving their dpvs in caves, plenty! How many T1 divers I've seen with 2 stages and exceeding their max deco time or max depth! Plenty!

But this is not only an instructoral or organisational challenge its a ALSO diver challenge, and risk evaluation challenge. But you are right GUE is letting the door open by not communicating clearly on this. There should be more clear instruction from GUE on how to apply the standards and what is valid. We are in a cross over period where the first ccr course was dependend on your other certifications (so if you had T2, then you could ultimately progress into T2 range diving with your JJ after only taking the ccr course), same I guess for cave diving. But this has changed (ccr1, ccr2, ccrCave) and probably the instructor corps needs to catch up (get certified to teach these classes, but also catch up mentally).

I've been diving the JJ since 2017, but only took the GUE class last year (so CCR1 and thus limited to T1 dives after 25 dives in the shallow). I had more than 100 ccr dives on the unit before taking the GUE class, including T1 level dives. Plus I was an established T2 diver. Yes I am progressing finally in doing deeper (T2 and T2+) dives on the unit, and officially this is out of certification range, but personally evaluating the risk vs training/experience I'm reasonably sure that I have enough experience, practice. Will I ever take CCR2, I don't know... maybe in a while, after I've done some more deep wreck diving projects to which I was invited by GUE instructors (so yes there you go, the instructors shouldn't invite me, because I'm breaching standards) ;-)

But as said you are right, the lines are not very clear on this one, vs very clear on C1 vs C2 or T1 vs T2.

PS: If I would take the unit in caves I would need a LOT of work up dives to get up to scratch, same unit but totally different environment.

 

[BlueTrin]

@beester was your CCR already in GUE config or did you modify it to be in GUE config?