DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[L13]

Interesting theme of “I’m better than my buddies”.

Are you guys not diving with people who are better than you? At least some of them time?

I'm fortunate that more often than not, I get to dive with people that are better than me.

 

[ginti]

Hi Ginti, I think you're misunderstanding this data.

I am not; indeed, I agree, at least in the most part, with your analysis.

First of all. It's not helpful to chuck 'seperated' and 'solo' in one group as you did in your initial post. I think you need to read the actual reports to see why.

I never did it; if you look at my previous post, I specified that they are two different categories:

Statistics say the opposite. The vast majority of fatal accidents happen in solo diving or with separated buddies. Any DAN report will show that to you.

Also, in all my posts, I specified that to have more insights, more numbers are required, and, to be fair, those numbers wouldn't be exhaustive (see the post I link at the end).

I'll give you a few examples of typical scenarios that have happened more than once (you can find these in the DAN reports over and over again):
1. Diver likely had a medical issue on den descent or in bad viz and or current and gets seperated due to the medical issue. The diver is either found dead or remains missing. in many of these cases the divers was an older person.
2. Solo diver is a novice at what he is doing. For instance, new rebreather, new dpv and doesn't use a checklist. deliberately or forgets and drowns due to hypoxia.
3. Solo diver goes on a night dives while intoxicated and is found dead.
4. Untrained solo diver is found dead.

The first type was not a solo related issue.
The second, third and fourth type diver made a reckless and deliberate decision to do something highly risky. That's not a solo issue. If you go out drunk or untrained or decide you don't need a checklist and you do it with a buddy, it's not save either.

Partially agree here. In scenarios 2/4 you do NOT have options if you are solo/alone, but you DO if you are with a buddy or more buddies. This is real-life stuff (I know people who forgot the rebreather oxygen closed, but their buddies noticed the error).

Scenario 1 is not considered a solo accident.

This is one of the reasons why many people advocate against solo diving (not the only one).

It's seems to me you knew solo diving is super dangerous and set out to prove your opinion by reading headlines.
I find the that statement that 86% of diver die alone is very misleading when talking about solo diving. Getting seperated from your buddy is a much larger group than actula solo diver.

Alone is alone, I specified this in all my posts and even clarified it during the calculations.

If you could actually find accident reports in which the solo part was either the cause or a major contributing factor, it would be interesting to read. I'm sure there are some but even though I have read many reports, I'm not sure I've ever found one of those.
I other words, can you find me a accident report, were a trained and experienced diver, with a not-wacky dive plan had an solo accident?

I have no idea if I can, but I do not want to convince you, so I won't. But please, don't take it personally. I can see you are a deeply analytical person, and am sure you understand how much time could certain types of research take. I have a life besides this forum

I hope you're not taking this as an attack, but I think your wrong and the data your posted doesn't support your claim at all. I think this is perpetuating an old wives tale.

I don't take it as an attack. Just be aware that without conclusive data, it is quite hard to say what is right or wrong. You are saying I am wrong even if I already made all your analyses.

The point is that the available data is inconclusive, and we must decide with what we have. It is a FACT that more than 70% of deaths occur to divers who are alone. I am aware this is not conclusive, but it's the best I have, and I will behave according to it At this point, it is just a matter of how conservative one wants to be, nothing more, nothing less.

When I look at the data I see something different. Too me it looks like the people who are more prone to die diving are older divers, divers that don't dive a lot and older divers that don't dive regularly and go below 100 feet or so. Not solo divers that dive a lot and do it conservatively.

Feel free to see something different. I know this data is not definitive, and with that in mind, everyone must make their own choice. Again, I do not want to convince you.

[EDIT: @berndo, by the way, I did NOT post this data to show that solo diving is more dangerous; this is not what these numbers show. I responded to a user who said the buddy system is a placebo. The data I posted shows that it is more likely to have a fatal accident when the buddy system fails (separation or solo); therefore, it is not a placebo; and, looking at numbers, this stands even without taking solo diving into account. On the contrary, there should be more effort to avoid separation. The solo diving question is a completely different problem ]

EDIT: thanks for posting the source.

However, IMHO, a separation even is a buddy pair event, not a solo diving event, as they started as a buddy pair.

Agree, but it still stands that the diver died alone.

Because people die when separated, does not obligatory mean that they would have had the same outcome if they were solo diving. Sorry to be nitpicking here, but for interpreting statistics one has to be careful.

I agree with you again, and I have already mentioned it; see my previous post:

DIR- GUE - Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

Or call the dive and try again with someone new the next day I've done a decent amount of cave dives with instabuddies I got from an instructor's contact list and haven't had a dud yet Not saying its not going to happen but I'd be willing to bet the number of qualified/good people on your...

scubaboard.com

 

[The Chairman]

Anyone agree with me this thread is worthless yet?

The OP asked why non-GUE divers are so interested, and this answers the question eloquently if a bit abstractedly. People with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon, myself included, love to kibbitz.

A few try to answer the actual question.
A few want to show how mensch they are.
Some have an axe to grind in regards to GUE.
A few need to disparage their buddies.
Some disparage those disparagers.
Some attempt to be clever.
Some try to change the topic altogether.
And you want to complain about the lot!​

In the end, it's not so much people being all that interested in GUE, but the normal ebb and flow of any internet discussion. Topics evolve and sometimes change completely. If at any time it bores or upsets you, there are plenty of other meandering discussions to be a part of... or not.

 

[LiteHedded]

The OP asked why non-GUE divers are so interested, and this answers the question eloquently if a bit abstractedly. People with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon, myself included, love to kibbitz.

A few try to answer the actual question.​

A few want to show how mensch they are.​

Some have an axe to grind in regards to GUE.​

A few need to disparage their buddies.​

Some disparage those disparagers.​

Some attempt to be clever.​

Some try to change the topic altogether.​

And you want to complain about the lot!​

In the end, it's not so much people being all that interested in GUE, but the normal ebb and flow of any internet discussion. Topics evolve and sometimes change completely. If at any time it bores or upsets you, there are plenty of other meandering discussions to be a part of... or not.

thanks pete will take it under advisement
why does scubaboard have all these intrusive ads now? you putting a new wing on ur house?

 

[Wibble]

Because people die when separated, does not obligatory mean that they would have had the same outcome if they were solo diving. Sorry to be nitpicking here, but for interpreting statistics one has to be careful.

Wonder what the Maltese thing was: the 'casualty buddy' cleared off and the 'OK buddy' had a deco obligation. Was that a solo dive and was the 'OK buddy' responsible?

 

[Wibble]

thanks pete will take it under advisement
why does scubaboard have all these intrusive ads now? you putting a new wing on ur house?

Ads? The force is weak with your adblock, or are you still using internet explorer?

 

[mariosx]

Halcyon equipment isnt required

Impossible. I remember when I visited EE the first time to buy non-Halcyon equipment they offered me for free some Kool-Aid. After we drink it, I continued shopping and looking at some gear without the blue-H, they told me that the Kool-Aid was poisoned and I had the following choices:

1. Die in the next 5 minutes from a heart attack holding these split fins I was looking for.
2. Buy a full set of H-approved gear for twins and get the antidote.

And that's how I am still alive. If you ask me, just from this experience, Halcyon gear is a hard requirement for safe diving.

 

[mariosx]

This reminds me of the Greek word νόμος. In Greek-English dictionaries, it translates to "suggestion." @mariosx will confirm.

Yeap. "Νόμος" (law) or "Κανόνες" (rules) can both be used. If we turn this thread to Greek lessons might actually gain more utility.

 

[LiteHedded]

Ads? The force is weak with your adblock, or are you still using internet explorer?

I run multiple pi holes here with ublock in chrome so not an issue
scubaboard is cancer in safari mobile though

 

[OrcasC205]

Impossible. I remember when I visited EE the first time to buy non-Halcyon equipment they offered me for free some Kool-Aid. After we drink it, I continued shopping and looking at some gear without the blue-H they told me that the Kool-Aid was poisoned and I had the following choices:

1. Die in the next 5 minutes from a heart attack holding these split fins I was looking for.
2. Buy a full set of H-approved gear for twins.

And that's how I am still alive. If you ask me, just from these experience, Halcyon gear is a hard requirement for safe diving.

I take this to mean the "H" tax is a form of health insurance, which is good news because now I can use my HSA to buy dive gear.