DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[ginti]

@berndo, it seems to me that we are discussing different problems. I am sure it is my fault, and I should have explained it better, but English is not my native language, and it's tough sometimes to explain complex concepts. I hope my point will be clearer after this post

First, let me be clear. I do not think that the lack of a buddy has ever been the primary cause of death. On the contrary, the primary causes of death were ALWAYS some others. Can we agree on this one?

However, I am saying that the buddy system can mitigate the fatality rate, and therefore it is not a bad system or a placebo.

I don't think it does. In many of the separation cases likely happened due to a medical event. Like on a descent in current and bad viz conditions, for instance.

That doesn't change the fact that there was a separation.

Just posting that % number doesn't tell you anything. You have actually have read the reports.

I did read the report, and I see what I told you. Separation due to a medical event is still a separation. Without separation, fatality is less likely, especially in case of medical events (see next list of examples). I can mention rescue cases underwater, and all of them would have resulted in deaths without a buddy, but they are not reported since usually these events are not reported So you can believe them or not, it's up to you.

Examples where a buddy was NECESSARY for survival:
- Rescue of a diver with convulsion due to oxygen toxicity in Croatia.
- Rescue of a diver who became unconscious inside a cave in Mexico (medical event - but, guess what, there was no separation).
- My friend who forgot the oxygen closed.
- etc.

I think you've made your mind up, telling from your tone.

You are insisting on reading my mind. Feel free

I'm sure if you knew of a case where solo or separation was the cause or the major factor, you'd tell me happily.

As I mentioned before, diving with your rebreather oxygen closed is something you can prevent when diving with buddies; this happened more than once to some friends. Therefore, for me, any death like this one that you could avoid with a buddy system is not DUE to a lack of a buddy system, but AVOIDABLE with the buddy system.

I do not care about the primary factor in my discussion. I care about avoiding accidents, and my point is to show that the buddy system is NOT a placebo. If it can save lives, it is not - at least, this is my definition

If you think your buddy is a great diver and he is not, he might be a placibo.

Agree, 100%

 

[berndo]

I mean these two for a start. did they not give you any examples in your technical training?
They both likely would've made it if they had a buddy or didn't get separated

Jan17-2015 - IUCRR

Mar10-2008 - IUCRR

Ok, the first one I remember being discussed at lenth on cdf.
I agree you could say this was a separation issue. IIRC the divers plan maust have been to get towed out as he didn't have enough gas to swim out.
I think you could argue that the diver was light on gas for this dive. IMHO this dive plan would have been better with either more gas or one more scoot. I personally would see the dive plan as the core issue rather than the separation. It's hard say if your buddy wouldn't get scared and high tail it in a situation like that. I think he also lost his scoot somehow.
A solo plan would have been safer in this particular case, I believe, but granted you could count this one a separation accident.

I'm not really sure what happened in the second one so I'm not sure if he would have survived with a buddy. This is kind of a tall order type dive.

My point was that when you read reports of none medical solo accidents, the people were mostly up to some pretty hair raising stuff. Not marking a tank and breathing o2 at 100' will be on the list of solo accidents, but solo really wasn't the issue. Not analysing and/or marking the tank was the issue.

 

[LiteHedded]

Ok, the first one I remember being discussed at lenth on cdf.
I agree you could say this was a separation issue. IIRC the divers plan maust have been to get towed out as he didn't have enough gas to swim out.
I think you could argue that the diver was light on gas for this dive. IMHO this dive plan would have been better with either more gas or one more scoot. I personally would see the dive plan as the core issue rather than the separation. It's hard say if your buddy wouldn't get scared and high tail it in a situation like that. I think he also lost his scoot somehow.
A solo plan would have been safer in this particular case, I believe, but granted you could count this one a separation accident.

I'm not really sure what happened in the second one so I'm not sure if he would have survived with a buddy. This is kind of a tall order type dive.

My point was that when you read reports of none medical solo accidents, the people were mostly up to some pretty hair raising stuff. Not marking a tank and breathing o2 at 100' will be on the list of solo accidents, but solo really wasn't the issue. Not analysing and/or marking the tank was the issue.

A jaunt into mainland is not hair raising stuff. If her buddy didn’t split she would be alive today. She almost made it. MORE scooters for this one ain’t it

Case two was ten feet from a full stage bottle when he was found.

 

[berndo]

As I mentioned before, diving with your rebreather oxygen closed is something you can prevent when diving with buddies; this happened more than once to some friends.

Well, if your friends would use a pre-dive checklist as they're supposed to. They wouldn't need the buddy to remind him.
You can call a closed o2 tank a buddy/no buddy related issue, fair enough. I'd call it being a little too sloppy and maybe not taking rebreather diving seriously enough. Not doing a checklist is hard to just forget. Here is see bad attitude as the issue.

 

[rddvet]

Interesting theme of “I’m better than my buddies”.

Are you guys not diving with people who are better than you? At least some of them time?

Not sure if I was lumped in there or not, but yes for sure. It's the best way to improve, diving with people who are more squared away or more experienced.

Idk if you've ever buddied up with somebody from cdf or the like for a basic cave dive. I initially was under the assumption people passed full cave so they can't be horrible. Yeah, no. They can be. I've met some great divers much better than me. But its much more of a mixed bag than I ever realized. So nowadays I pretty much never instabuddy unless its someone I've known or known of for a while and have first hand accounts that they arent going to flip out and haul ass on me mid-dive. I rarely solo dive nowadays as well.

 

[berndo]

A jaunt into mainland is not hair raising stuff. If her buddy didn’t split she would be alive today.

I think the lady split, not the dude.
I don't mean this was hair raising stuff. When you read the solo reports in the DAN or BSAC reports you see hair raising stuff. Drunk people, untrained, deep air, new reabreather, very bad physical shape etc.

The buddy got scared, I think ideally they should have had more gas. I'd rather have another stage on a dive like that. As I said, you can count that as separation issue.

 

[LiteHedded]

I think the lady split, not the dude.
I don't mean this was hair raising stuff. When you read the solo reports in the DAN or BSAC reports you see hair raising stuff. Drunk people, untrained, deep air, new reabreather, very bad physical shape etc.

The buddy got scared, I think ideally they should have had more gas. I'd rather have another stage on a dive like that. As I said, you can count that as separation issue.

Her buddy had more gas for her

 

[berndo]

Her buddy had more gas for her

He silted out, lost his scooter, apparently lost the line for a bit and didn't have enough to swim the 3000'.
Yes, as I said you can count this one. I don't wanna nitpick over this. The separation was a factor... it didn't need to be but in this case it was.

 

[Wibble]

No dive lift...... But in the pic you can see the power davit. Sometimes we use that post dive to pull gear up and over the gunnel into the cockpit..

And I should mention that I'd be fine with a GUE buddy team on my boat as long as they weren't assholes......AND....I was assured that they had sufficient cold water low vis experience.

Would love to come over and play

 

[OrcasC205]

But I guess that brings up another subject that a Non-Gue diver might be interested in knowing about.....which is the topic of this thread!

If GUE Charters a full boat, do they only allow GUE divers, GUE equipment configs and GUE compliance?

I think it would be a fair assumption that GUE would limit a full boat charter to GUE divers and expect them to follow GUE procedures, but that shouldn't surprise anyone. If GUE is going through the logistics of chartering the full boat, why shouldn't we limit it to divers that are going to be well-trained teammates for other divers on the boat? At least in Seattle, it's not like we lack enough GUE divers to fill a charter.