Who is actually cave diving?

[thethumper]

My dive buddy & I have been diving for 12 & 15 years. Most of which have been caves & caverns. Now I know I'm going to draw fire for this :boom: , but we aren't certified, but have been doing light, single take 3rds penetrations for most of these 12-15 years. Living in Jacksonville, caves & caverns are the best bet. We start Intro in October. We figured it was time to do it legal. While we've always EXPRESSED if not imposed safety & conservation, it's past time to do things under the guide of NSS-CDS.
So after seeing an OW instructor get stuck in Alexander Sping & blowing my dive, I figured it was time to bite the bullet & sign up for class.

David

 

[MikeFerrara]

You have read the warning signs is the beginning of most caves haven't you? Which caves have you dived? Sliding into the well lit area of a cavern is done by many even without training. Venturing into the cave (beyond the lighted without training doesn't have such a good track record. Have you done dives that require jumps or gaps? Do you at least dive an H-valve and a long hose? Have you practiced using a reel in the dark? Sheck Exley taught himselfe to cave dive and lived through it but many of his contemporaries didn't. In fact he had some pretty close calls in the beginning.

 

[Divesherpa]

Mike, Let's call a spade a spade.
Exley died in a cave.
Thumper, I hope you are joking. If not, hug your wife and kids and apologize for being a DUMBASS for the last 12-15 years. I don't want to be mean, but people who do this stuff without any kind of training whatsoever are the reason for the IUCRR. That's the Cave Rescue (twice)and recovery (way too often) team.

Good luck with your training.

 

[thethumper]

Like I said......I knew I was going to draw fire & that's fine. As to Sheck..He didn't follow his own instructions...He's dead....But alot was learned from what he did & the mistakes he made.

In answer to you questions....Caves : Peacock, OrgangeGrove, Cow, Little river, Blue Hole (Popcorn maker) Deland, Jug Hole @ Itch. and a few off the map sites. Yes some of them were jump sites & gap sites, as well as side mounts. While some others were doff & push trough impasses.

I do dive with H valves, Odins (Jetstreams) w/7' hoses for ea of us, primary & redundant regs, alt. air, DiveRITE Harness, Main reel, jump reels, primary & 2 back up lights & we did get out start from a former hard core cave instructor. As I said, we are talking about mild EAN 32, 36 penatrations on 3rds w/short deco. As for reel work, we practiced in many a night dive as well as Complete & utter silt out situations. I won't go into war w/o a loaded weapon & back up....I'm not stupid. I read as much as possible & dove w/several friends, full CDS, to a turning point to develope skills under supervision.

Is caving w/o "Proper" training & cert advisable....Looking back on what I know now.....Certainly not.....Did we dot our i's & cross our t's???? You bet your ass we did.

Would I start again the way I did if I had it to do over again..... Absolutley NOT. Would I recommend anyone else start that way??? Not even if their life DIDN'T depend on it. AND YOUR LIFE DOES DEPEND ON IT.

Divesherpa....you're not being mean..... You have a Very Valid concern. If what I just said here doesn't make you see that I'm not a complete crack-pot & that the way he went about things was bass ackwards & he knows it...I'm sorry. And I do know who the IVCRR team is. I actually work w/one of them.

Sorry Soooooooo Long....but I felt I should al least explain.

Thanks, David.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Divesherpa,
Sheck died in a cave but he was pushing way into unknown territory. It's hard to know the right way to do a thing that has never been done before. Test pilots die too but it's not because they lack flying skill.

I was refering to his early cave dives with single tanks (J valve), no air gauge, no back up second stage. no lines. crappy lights, no bc's and no training. He survived it and was instrumental in teaching divers how it should be done.

 

[thethumper]

I agree w/you Mike. If some one doesn't pioneer, nothing gets accomplished.
That's why I said "....But alot was learned from what he did & the mistakes he made. "

If it wasn't for Sheck & many others, we wouldn't know 1/2 of what we know now. Or we wouldn't be as advanced as we are @ present.

Let me go one further.....If it wasn't for people like Sheck & many others sharing information about the skills they had learned & developed instead of being tight lipped & tight assed like some (NOT ALL) tech divers (including cavers) we would be truely the child in the dark forrest. :crawl:"LOST"

All I'm saying is no matter what level you are, share w/those in you reach. DON'T Preach. But if you see an obvious problem, ie like the guy that put his BC on his tank backwards, say something. But you don't have to make them feel like an a**hole.
Or if some one asks a question, don't look @ them as if they're below you, because you were a nit wit @ one time as well.

Ok.....I think my tirade is over. Man....I think I ruptured something.:loopy:

David

 

[Divesherpa]

I agree with you completely, Mike. He was instrumental in the early development of almost all of the rules we currently dive by.
I appreciate what he did, but acknowledge the fact that he died of an ego problem. Unfortunate, I would have enjoyed meeting him.

 

[trheeltek]

Divesherpa once bubbled...
I appreciate what he did, but acknowledge the fact that he died of an ego problem.

I'd heard his death was related to the extreme depth he went to (and had returned from before, with a technique he invented called backswitching). Did the autopsy show an ego problem was involved as well?

Sorry, maybe a little too sarcastic, but come on now. Sheck survived a ton of stuff that would've (and has) killed normal divers. What killed him, and made him the best ever, was his willingness to risk everything to find out what was around the next bend. Like many great explorers, it finally caught up with him - if that's ego, so be it. How many divers have been saved by the innovations and refinements he made to gear and technique in the meantime? Accept his death as the fitting end to a life spent finding out what wouldn't kill him, and breathe a silent thank you every time you come back out safe yourself.

 

[Peat Bogg]

Interesting replies to the subject. I just want to add this. No matter weather your caving, or base jumping etc... the sport is only as dangerious as the person doing it.....I met Sheck once several months before his death. He was divng at Ginnie. He was very nice and unassuming. He and his buddy were going through a check list and each was throughly checking the other one's gear. What impressed me was they were working as a team with safety as the ultimate goal....Yet he did die in a cave. Where Sheck went wrong was he broke his own rules that he laid out for the rest of us....I know Sheck was trying to break the 1000 foot mark. I dive with Thumper and he and I pracitce the same rules no matter what dive we are doing. We plan our dive and dive our plan. We use the rules outlined by cds/nss and nacd....He can rig up my stuff and I can rig up his. We know each others gear like it is our own. We dove the Speigel Grove in the keys and were treated like the freaks we are. We dove on reefs in open water but still carried our lights and reels and dived by 3rds. Why you ask?? because it was habbit. We found a few swim throughs on the reef and a few caves that are created by the coral growing around the local currents. We were safe and explored and had a good time. My wish for all of us is to come back alive. It was a big shock to me when Sheck died. I actually felt scared. Scared that the " Dive God" Sheck perished. Maybe we shouldn't be caving. But ultimately I believe his death made the sport safer. Our beloved mentor and leader is now gone. When your in Branford at the Steam Boat Inn or at Bill Rennakers shop or any number of places where cavers congrigate they mention Sheck with respect reverance and in hushed voices. He is still respected and missed very much. His legacy is why we practice safety and dive with rules. But you have to respect the cave too. I have aborted several dives when nothing apparent was wrong. Every once in a while I get a little voice popping up in my mind and it says "don't go this isn't right". So I don't. to answer the question is cave diving the most dangerios sport?? I don't think it is but it is the most unforgiving. Once your out of air its all over but the twitching.....with much respect I bid you safe diving...
:shark:

 

[bailiff]

If you make it to Cozumel....you have to take the shuttle over to the cenotes around Playa de Carmen.....really increadible dive!

They are fresh water caves and caverns.....and it's a great place to do you first cave dive..

also...around central Florida you can dive with Hal Watts at his place....he is a vast resource of knowledge...and loaded with stories....i thinks he's been diving since the garden hose was invented.....

see ya deep

Bailiff