Whining to the choir

[Derek S]

Some truly serious questions for "The Choir."

Assumptions --

1. TSandM is committed to staying a "recreational" diver -- that is, one who dives within NDL's and who does NO enclosed space or overhead environment diving.

2. She wants to get a pass (and a card?) from her Fundamentals class.

This is where the both of you need to be brutally honest with each other. If she truly intends to staying an NDL recreational (I assume 130fsw) diver, she will need to rationalize with herself if putting the requisite time/money into it is worth it to her. IMHO, she already has made that decision.

Question #1: In order to get a passing grade, MUST she have a long-hosed rig, an analog SPG and a bp/w?

If so, how does having those pieces of equipment materially effect the ability to lead a team on a closed course keeping depth, attitude and awareness as opposed to the rig she has now? Likewise, why is the equipment important for any other "fundies skill" -- except for being the donor in an OOA situation?

Yes she must, but those things can be borrowed or rented. What I want to know is what LDS sold her a rig without requiring her to have an analog SPG in the first place?!? I assume they got her for an AI console setup of some type?

As with what Jeff said, if she has no intention of progressing along the GUE educational path to Tech I or Cave I, then she neededn't worry about passing. If she's improved her diving one iota, then she has already "passed".

Not having those pieces of gear doesn't affect her ability to be a teammate, per se. Always plan for contingencies, and the GUE mindset is that each piece of gear is a team resource. For example, an AIR2 is not a good team resource, IMHO. That being said, I'm sure JJ could dive circles around many divers using a stab jacket, pink split-fins and a snorkel.

A followup question is, IS a 7' hose on your primary (not to mention an analog SPG instead of an air integrated computer) safer for recreational diving (defined as no overhead/enclosed environments and all dives within NDL's) than a shorter (4, 5 or 6') hose?

Safer is a relative term. How much are you trusting that AI computer? Transmitters fail, computers give false data. Sure, an analog SPG can "die" too, but the chances of it happening are probably incalcuable compared to a computer failure. I also like the SPG in that it forces us divers to use the "big computer" between our ears.

IF the ONLY reason to get an analog SPG, 7' hose on a primary reg, a necklace back-up and a BP/W is to pass the certification, do any of you think those expenses would be worth it? (PLEASE NOTE THE ASSUMPTIONS!!!!!)

Again, expense is a relative question. If/when the proverbial "stuff" hits the fan, will you be quibbling over a few hundred dollars? Even though his comments are known to incite riots, GI3 has had some true nuggets over the years. One of my favorites is (paraphrasing): When you need it, you'd pay any sum of money for it.

BTW, TSandM knows my plan is to add a longer hose to my primary, keep my Air2 AND add a necklace 2ndary to my rig -- I think it is wise to keep our gear as similar as possible. (Although, having started my diving career with a "backplate" without a wing, I LOVE my back inflate BCD with integrated weights. I never want to use a weightbelt again!)

Yet again, I think you both need to be brutally honest with each other, and more importantly, yourselves. Obviously with the trips you've recently taken and plan to take in the very near future, you're not in the poor house, and this gear will likely make nary a hiccup in the bank book. IMHO, when it comes down to it, if you must choose between gear or a trip, the gear wins out each time. A good rig can/will last years after the memories of a trip have faded. YMMV.

 

[Derek S]

I just had my first real air share last week and was sure glad to have the 7 foot. The recipient had 30 minutes of deco to do in in shallows and was totally 00A.

I stuck with him for ~20 minutes until another tank was bought down, and it sure would have been more cumbersome with a short hose, especially with the strong surge we were experiencing...

Thank you for helping me prove my point jag. Glad to hear everything turned out okay. Was this a buddy, or a random diver who just came along OOA?

 

[jagfish]

Hi Derek
It was a guy who came from nowhere (I think he was solo).
Thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=119385

 

[TSandM]

Do I NEED these things to dive? Of course not. Does Peter NEED a new underwater camera?

On a serious note, and about "passing" Fundies: When I first came to Scubaboard, I read an article about blowing bubbles. The thesis of the argument was that for many people, the initial intoxication of being underwater will wear off. The question raised was, "How do you keep diving interesting when it isn't new any more?"

I know the answer for me. I like challenges. Make me work at something, give me a goal, and you can keep me interested forever. The harder it is, the harder I'm generally hooked. After all, I chose one of the most difficult disciplines in medicine (surgery) and was actually signed up for a cardiac surgery fellowship when Peter and I got engaged, and my priorities changed.

Steve said he would show us the bar, and we wouldn't reach it. I certainly didn't, but I don't want to leave it there. I don't want to leave it because I think some of the things he wants me to improve are safety issues, and I don't want to leave it because I suspect that in diving, just as in skiing, improving your precision and and control comes along with an equal dividend of increased joy. I also don't want to leave it because I don't like to leave things unfinished, and because, when Steve gave me the provisional rating, it was based on me making a commitment to improve what wasn't good.

I don't know what diving holds for me in the future. I've been at this a whole four months. I doubt it will be anything technical (although cave diving sounds like SUCH a kick). But I could easily see doing more GUE training (eg. rec triox) just for the fun of being made to reach for that bar.

What's actually rather humorous about this whole thing is that we both agree on getting a second second stage (and putting it on a necklace, too) and a longer primary hose. This entire argument is actually over an SPG and a $40 hose . . . can you believe that?

 

[Peter Guy]

Derek S wrote

What I want to know is what LDS sold her a rig without requiring her to have an analog SPG in the first place?!?

Since this is the "DIR" subforum, I am going to assume (thereby making an *** out of "u and me") DS is a "DIR Diver" and has "drunk the Koolaid."

It is exactly this type of comment that makes agnostics, like me, run away from the "DIR Types" and denigrates the very good training/philosophy actually promoted by GUE.

What LDS indeed would sell a regulator package without an analog SPG?" Why just about all of them when they sell air integrated computers -- whether remote or directly connected (like ours). Just because it isn't endorsed by GUE doesn't make it wrong or bad. (Or at least that is MY understanding of the teaching of Fundamentals.)

 

[lamont]

If so, how does having those pieces of equipment materially effect the ability to lead a team on a closed course keeping depth, attitude and awareness as opposed to the rig she has now? Likewise, why is the equipment important for any other "fundies skill" -- except for being the donor in an OOA situation?

A followup question is, IS a 7' hose on your primary (not to mention an analog SPG instead of an air integrated computer) safer for recreational diving (defined as no overhead/enclosed environments and all dives within NDL's) than a shorter (4, 5 or 6') hose?

The long hose primary does more than just allow you to exit a cave single file. It keeps both of your regulators up close and out of the silt. With the primary in your mouth and the backup around your neck you are also going to easily be able to feel a free flow. And there's no way that you're going to lose either your backup or the reg in your mouth and not notice it. With an octo setup the hose can get hooked and the reg can get pulled out of the octo holder and get left trailing behind the diver (either unavailable in the event of an OOA or free-flowing and unnoticed). It also will generally be faster to donate a long hose than hunt down where the octo is. Plus, the long hose optimizes for the situation where the recipient simply grabs the reg out of the donors mouth.

So, there's an awful lot of good reasons there for recreational divers to be diving a long hose. However, the long hose does take some additional skill to be able to work it. In a diver who has never been trained on a long hose it may be less safe, but that's a reason why its required to have a long hose in order to pass fundies, so that the diver can demonstrate those skills.

The length of the hose doesn't matter too much, but with a can light, a 5-7' hose routes better and gives more room in an OOA.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Soggy sells great SPGs. He's on this board, PM him. A 24" hose and the SPG together will run you less than $100.

And Peter, you clearly remember the essence of wisdom:

"Do or do not. There is no try" (Yoda)

There are reasons why it is all part of a system. If you're going to go this way, go this way all the way. Or don't. But no Half-Assery allowed!

And its always worth the cost. Chris and Chrissy Rouse are dead today because trimix wasn't 'worth the cost'. The right stuff is worth the cost. If you change your mind later, sell the stuff, chalk up the difference to enjoyment, and go on. But don't try to do it while saving money and forcing round pegs into square holes.

Best to you both,

Doc

 

[Derek S]

This entire argument is actually over an SPG and a $40 hose . . . can you believe that?

Even having been married for only 5 years, yes I can.

 

[Derek S]

Derek S wrote

Since this is the "DIR" subforum, I am going to assume (thereby making an *** out of "u and me") DS is a "DIR Diver" and has "drunk the Koolaid."

It is exactly this type of comment that makes agnostics, like me, run away from the "DIR Types" and denigrates the very good training/philosophy actually promoted by GUE.

What LDS indeed would sell a regulator package without an analog SPG?" Why just about all of them when they sell air integrated computers -- whether remote or directly connected (like ours). Just because it isn't endorsed by GUE doesn't make it wrong or bad. (Or at least that is MY understanding of the teaching of Fundamentals.)

Maybe I worded it incorrectly. When I typed that message it was quite early and was very upset because I was awoken in the middle of the night (4am) by one of our cats and I have had a lot of trouble sleeping recently (apnea). But I digress....

What I meant was more along the lines of "Geez, why is an LDS selling a diver an AI computer (for more profit of course) when an analog SPG would have sufficed at probably 1/5th the price?" The LDS that I was certified through is a PADI shop and they didn't push computers of any kind, they want divers to become completely proficient in the use of the tables/SPG first.

This is a GUE forum, so yes, you'll probably recieve GUE answers and GUE perspective. I'm not suggesting that divers who use AI computers are "wrong", but I do believe that it is not the most efficient way to track air consumption.

Good luck in whatever route the two of you take. Safe dives. :14:
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[lamont]

FWIW, I don't have a huge problem with the diver who dives wet and streamlined with an air-2, an AI computer and a 40" primary. One of the instructors in my BOW class had that config and had been diving for 20+ years and liked that he was almost back to the way he used to dive with a single hose and a reg coming off of it.

There are a lot of different possible gear configs and philosophies in diving and on recreational profiles it typically comes down more to the experience and preparation of the diver rather than the gear. If you want DIR, though, then it has to be with a DIR gear config, and really needs to start with the long hose. Getting into "why dive recreational DIR?" is kind of a rathole though -- either the diver wants to and therefore needs to have a DIR gear config, or they don't.