Which type of BC for DM/Instructor?

[Jungho Kim]

So it is different, and the problem is...? Are you allowed to use your knighthawk? If so, why is it allowed when it is different from the ones used by the students? Are they all using knighthawks?

Are you seriously suggesting a Knighthawk is that different from a Jacket style BC from the perspective of a new student? The releases are very similar to many jacket style BCs.... e.g. quick-release, cumberbund etc... Whereas a BP&W is quite different... How would the instructor demonstrate skills such as taking your BC on and off at the surface and underwater when the releases are so different? Sure I suppose it can be done but why? A lot of information is packed into a short time in a PADI OW class and perhaps helping the student learn the basics first is the way to go... Then make them aware of different equipment configurations and the benefits of each as they progress...

I was made aware of different BC styles by my instructor when I got my OW... He encouraged me to try different styles while also giving me input into why he dives a BP&W and also a back inflate BC, the LDS happened to have a pool right in the same premises so that is exactly what I did and I have been happy with my choices...

 

[Jungho Kim]

I found that they can find it MUCH faster when I pointed to the one on THEIR BCD.

A effective way of teaching is through demonstration... How would you demonstrate the skills effectively when you configuration is so different? Even if you could, why would you add that extra complexity? Isn't DIR all about simplicity and doing the right thing in a given context?

 

[DevonDiver]

Are you seriously suggesting a Knighthawk is that different from a Jacket style BC from the perspective of a new student? ...Whereas a BP&W is quite different...

How so?

Bladder? Tick!
Backplate? Tick!
Harness? Tick!
LPI? Tick!
OPV? Tick!

You mean it doesn't have some plastic quick releases on the shoulder straps? A velcro cumberbund? THAT's "quite different"?!?

How would the instructor demonstrate skills such as taking your BC on and off at the surface and underwater when the releases are so different?

They demonstrate taking the unit off.... then demonstrate putting it back on. Easy!

What can't they show? Loosening a QR buckle before removal? Tightening it to fit after donning? That cannot be simply explained to a student?

As I said before, I've taught hundreds of students to dive whilst wearing a BP&W. There's never been any confusion. It isn't "that different". Students aren't "that stupid".

Please don't over-complicate the concept of a BP&W... it really isn't a 'tekkie' black art. It's just a BCD.

Sure I suppose it can be done but why?

For me,... because that's my chosen equipment. Simple as that. I won't wear what I consider to be unfavourable kit, just to conform to prevailing dive industry mis-appreciations about what a BP&W is.

I also wouldn't work for a company that strong-armed me into buying unfavourable kit, just so that company could sell more of that unfavourable equipment to students.

There's a lot of silly nonsense peddled about BP&W systems by instructors. In most cases, that nonsense is peddled to disguise a lack of understanding of the kit. Dive instructors can be a very ego-driven bunch...and nothing damages the ego more than having to burst a student's delusions about your god-like status than admitting you don't know about something. So why admit that?... when you can regurgitate some implausible denials about that equipment's function and role.. The good thing about Open Water students is that they won't know it's implausible nonsense....

A lot of information is packed into a short time in a PADI OW class and perhaps helping the student learn the basics first is the way to go... Then make them aware of different equipment configurations and the benefits of each as they progress...

A BCD is a BCD. A device that controls buoyancy. It has a bladder, a backplate, a harness and an LPI. There's nothing complicated about it.

Some jacket designs vary more wildly than BP&W. Don't even get started on AIR2s or hose configurations.

Spending 30 seconds explaining the slight differences between a BP&W BCD and a Jacket BCD isn't going to over-load anyone. "This one has little plastic clips for release and is adjustable. This one doesn't." Nope... that's definitely not rocket science. Adding to that "When you remove your BCD, it is easier if you loosen the adjustments... and don't forget to tighten them when you don it again" is not mind-bendingly incomprehensible either...

 

[Jungho Kim]

How so?

Bladder? Tick!
Backplate? Tick!
Harness? Tick!
LPI? Tick!
OPV? Tick!

You mean it doesn't have some plastic quick releases on the shoulder straps? A velcro cumberbund? THAT's "quite different"?!?

Perhaps not to you or me, but to a new student? Yes, I would absolutely say so... Unless PADI decides to lengthen the duration of the OW class, which frankly already is quite short (the skill levels of many of the newly certified OW divers out there is an indication of this) I would say simplification is a good thing... That means eliminating as much variance as possible in the teaching scenario... That means standardizing on some sort of equipment configuration... but, hey what do I know, I'm just a DM candidate... However, I also teach university level software engineering courses so I do know something about teaching...

They demonstrate taking the unit off.... then demonstrate putting it back on. Easy!

What can't they show? Loosening a QR buckle before removal? Tightening it to fit after donning? That cannot be simply explained to a student?

As I said before, I've taught hundreds of students to dive whilst wearing a BP&W. There's never been any confusion. It isn't "that different". Students aren't "that stupid".

Please don't over-complicate the concept of a BP&W... it really isn't a 'tekkie' black art. It's just a BCD.



For me,... because that's my chosen equipment. Simple as that. I won't wear what I consider to be unfavourable kit, just to conform to prevailing dive industry mis-appreciations about what a BP&W is.

I also wouldn't work for a company that strong-armed me into buying unfavourable kit, just so that company could sell more of that unfavourable equipment to students.

There's a lot of silly nonsense peddled about BP&W systems by instructors. In most cases, that nonsense is peddled to disguise a lack of understanding of the kit. Dive instructors can be a very ego-driven bunch...and nothing damages the ego more than having to burst a student's delusions about your god-like status than admitting you don't know about something. So why admit that?... when you can regurgitate some implausible denials about that equipment's function and role.. The good thing about Open Water students is that they won't know it's implausible nonsense....

A BCD is a BCD. A device that controls buoyancy. It has a bladder, a backplate, a harness and an LPI. There's nothing complicated about it.


Some jacket designs vary more wildly than BP&W. Don't even get started on AIR2s or hose configurations.

Spending 30 seconds explaining the slight differences between a BP&W BCD and a Jacket BCD isn't going to over-load anyone. "This one has little plastic clips for release and is adjustable. This one doesn't." Nope... that's definitely not rocket science. Adding to that "When you remove your BCD, it is easier if you loosen the adjustments... and don't forget to tighten them when you don it again" is not mind-bendingly incomprehensible either...

 

[fisheater]

OW students, at least in California, are going to start diving will others who have conventional BCs with conventional octos, who have conventional BCs with integrated octos, who have BP/Ws with standard hoses, who have BP/Ws with long hoses and bungied octos, and lots of other configurations, pretty soon after "graduation."

Why the heck not let them into the fact that gear configurations vary so much?

 

[DevonDiver]

Perhaps not to you or me, but to a new student? Yes, I would absolutely say so...

Based on your decades of teaching experience?

Let me reiterate: I've taught hundreds of students to dive whilst wearing a BP&W. There's never been any confusion.

Unless PADI decides to lengthen the duration of the OW class, which frankly already is quite short (the skill levels of many of the newly certified OW divers out there is an indication of this) I would say simplification is a good thing...

So why would you choose to over-complicate some minor variances in equipment? We're talking about 2 plastic buckles and some velcro here....

That means eliminating as much variance as possible in the teaching scenario... That means standardizing on some sort of equipment configuration...

Yes.. standardisation.

Equipment

Standard Diver Equipment

Make sure divers have, at a minimum:

1. Fins, mask and snorkel
2. Compressed gas cylinder and valve
3. Buoyancy control device (BCD) with tank mount or separate backpack, and low pressure inflator

It doesn't get much more standardised and simple than that.

but, hey what do I know, I'm just a DM candidate...

As you admit, you've never actually taught anyone to scuba dive, so at best, can only present an assumption or hypothesis on the topic.

In contrast, you're being presented with first-hand factual testimony that contradicts your hypothesis.

If you can't see the benefit of other's experience, then I question why you started this thread in the first place? Did I misunderstand that you were asking a question?

Re-visit the thread in a couple of years and see if your views have changed.

 

[Peter Guy]

First I had to check which forum this was in -- "Going Pro" -- good.

OP -- You've gotten good advice from all even though what you've gotten are various POVs. That is as it should be.

A few questions from this peanut gallery:

a. Where will you be doing your confined water? In a pool or in "confined open water?"

b. Where will you be doing your open water? In warm or cold water?

A few comments:

a. Confined water is where "staff" demo skills and help students learn skills. IF there is a reason to have "similar equipment" to the student, that ONLY APPLIES in the confined water setting. At least in my shop, although most Open Water Students use shop gear, not ALL the shop gear is identical. And, of course, the owner is always very happy to have a student buy her own gear which I guarantee will NOT be the same as the student rental gear. Therefore, it is likely that, at least for me, not all students will be wearing the same BC for the whole class. In fact, I find it is preferable for the students to be exposed to different BCs during the confined water sessions.

For the record, I use a Back Inflate BC in confined water while students typically are using jacket BCs. I'm not at all sure any of them have ever noticed a difference.

b. Open Water -- Use what is most comfortable for you. Staff is there to evaluate students and for safety -- NOT for the purposes of teaching or demonstration. Me, I use my BP/W with long hose and bungied backup (and my snorkel is rolled up in my dry suit pocket where ALL snorkels should be in cold water). It is the very rare student that ever notices that I'm not wearing the same gear they are wearing!

To whomever said there it is a myth a back inflate system will tip you onto your face -- NO, it is not a myth. It is true -- at least in my experience -- DEPENDING ON THE GEAR CONFIGURATION. For me, in warm water, AL 80, SeaQuest Balance (Back inflate BC with integrated weights), 5 mm wetsuit, on the surface at the end of the dive, the rig wants to put me on my face. For what it's worth, I don't have this issue in a steel BP/W but the Balance, yup.

 

[TSandM]

I would say that, no matter HOW carefully you rinse gear, it takes a beating in chlorine. For DMing in the pool, I wear a little jacket BC that we got as part of a big gear-dump purchase we made from a retiring instructor. It works fine, and looks enough like what the students are using to avoid any possible confusion. But honestly . . . I think students are baffled and befuddled enough by their own equipment. I don't think they notice mine at all. In fact, my husband sent an e-mail to the members of his current OW class after their first day of OW dives, asking if anyone could tell him anything they observed about his equipment. With the exception of one man, a certified diver who is recertifying, NOT ONE student had noticed ANYTHING different about his gear. They were in jackets with standard reg setups; he's in a backplate and long hose.

I'll make a correction . . . a couple of them noticed he was carrying a light

I personally do not think it matters at all what the instructors or staff wear -- certainly not in OW, and probably not even in the pool -- so long as they are comfortable in them, and in the pool, can demonstrate all the required skills.

I also don't get the thing about needing a lot of storage as a DM. In the pool, I carry nothing other than my own equipment; spares are readily available at the edge of the pool, should a student need them. In OW, extra weights are on the float, and I carry my normal safety gear on my person.

 

[Jungho Kim]

Based on your decades of teaching experience?

No, clearly not... I am after all just a DM candidate... This is based on my very limited experience assisting classes, however, more relevantly also based on my experience as someone still quite new to diving and different diving configurations. Not too long ago, 1 1/2 yrs, I was an open water student myself and I would have been confused with different equipment configurations when the focus should be on fundamentals such as buoyancy and explaining WHY the skills are important... And as a teacher in another domain for many years, I would say the focus should be on fundamentals that transcends equipment configurations and toolsets... and move on to other subject areas once the fundamentals are established... Furthermore, given the very tight timeframes in which many OW classes are taught e.g. 1 weekend with every little practice time, simplification is of value... But that is my opinion only... cheers...

 

[Jungho Kim]

I think making the distinction between confined water and open water is important and absolutely makes a lot of sense... thanks...

First I had to check which forum this was in -- "Going Pro" -- good.

OP -- You've gotten good advice from all even though what you've gotten are various POVs. That is as it should be.

A few questions from this peanut gallery:

a. Where will you be doing your confined water? In a pool or in "confined open water?"

b. Where will you be doing your open water? In warm or cold water?

A few comments:

a. Confined water is where "staff" demo skills and help students learn skills. IF there is a reason to have "similar equipment" to the student, that ONLY APPLIES in the confined water setting. At least in my shop, although most Open Water Students use shop gear, not ALL the shop gear is identical. And, of course, the owner is always very happy to have a student buy her own gear which I guarantee will NOT be the same as the student rental gear. Therefore, it is likely that, at least for me, not all students will be wearing the same BC for the whole class. In fact, I find it is preferable for the students to be exposed to different BCs during the confined water sessions.

For the record, I use a Back Inflate BC in confined water while students typically are using jacket BCs. I'm not at all sure any of them have ever noticed a difference.

b. Open Water -- Use what is most comfortable for you. Staff is there to evaluate students and for safety -- NOT for the purposes of teaching or demonstration. Me, I use my BP/W with long hose and bungied backup (and my snorkel is rolled up in my dry suit pocket where ALL snorkels should be in cold water). It is the very rare student that ever notices that I'm not wearing the same gear they are wearing!

To whomever said there it is a myth a back inflate system will tip you onto your face -- NO, it is not a myth. It is true -- at least in my experience -- DEPENDING ON THE GEAR CONFIGURATION. For me, in warm water, AL 80, SeaQuest Balance (Back inflate BC with integrated weights), 5 mm wetsuit, on the surface at the end of the dive, the rig wants to put me on my face. For what it's worth, I don't have this issue in a steel BP/W but the Balance, yup.