Which type of BC for DM/Instructor?

[Jungho Kim]

Thanks all for the comments and lively debate... Lot to think about... cheers.

 

[DevonDiver]

This is based... on my experience as someone still quite new to diving and different diving configurations. Not too long ago, 1 1/2 yrs, I was an open water student myself and I would have been confused with different equipment configurations...

How do you know that? You've not experienced being taught in that way, so you're making assumptions on a hypothetical situation.

As I've said: I've taught hundreds of students to dive whilst wearing a BP&W. There's never been any confusion.

Is there a way I can explain that real-life experience, as an instructor, any clearer?

Think about what it means to 'teach hundreds of students'. That's quite a large and relevant sample base... and quite a lot of experience.

You did ask the question here. You were given answers, supported by real-life instructor experience.

If you weren't prepared to accept those answers... and want to refute those experiences.... why bother asking in the first place?

I can't help but think you're underestimating the ability of an instructor to convey knowledge... and/or underestimate the ability of a student to absorb that knowledge. Open Water is a pretty simplistic course and there's plenty of scope to exceed the bare minimum requirements of that course for the student's benefit.

You mentioned earlier a perception that the OW course was generally viewed as insufficient "based upon the skill levels of many OW students". And yet, you view 'giving students less' as a solution to this?

You've also stated another inaccurate presumption several times:

Unless PADI decides to lengthen the duration of the OW class, which frankly already is quite short...

A lot of information is packed into a short time in a PADI OW class...

Why assume that the course is short? PADI provide a minimum course requirement. There's no limit imposed in respect of time, dives or practice on the course. An instructor has all the time in the world to teach to their own satisfaction and ensure student competence in the pre-designated structure of skills.

IF an instructor/dive operation decide to impose duration/practice limitations on that course, then they do so at their own behest, for their own reasons. I'd suggest profitability and turnover are primary reasons for this.

This highlight a critical variation in perspective... that any potential dive pro should be aware of.

(1) Some instructors/operations provide the minimum required training, fulfilling the minimum standards for certification. 5 confined sessions/4 open water dives - and do the best you can within that strict framework. Nothing more, nothing less. Students pay for x confined session and y open water dives. Everything has to be fitted within that. If it can't be, then it is disregarded, providing the minimum agency requirements are met.

(2) Some instructors/operations provide the necessary training for a student to become a safe and confident scuba diver. Whilst the minimum requirements are always achieved, they will normally go beyond them to achieve a desired end-state in physical and psychological performance. Students pay to become competent scuba divers. Nothing is disregarded. There is no strict structure that limits that development.

So, what does a student pay for?

To become a safe, confident diver?.... or to be provided with the minimum feasible training to satisfy a pre-set and absolutely minimal structure of training, as designated by the agency?

Results orientated or provision orientated? What should dictate how we provide scuba tuition?

 

[oreocookie]

As I've said: I've taught hundreds of students to dive whilst wearing a BP&W. There's never been any confusion.

I have ZERO professional experience but I have little doubt about this statement. The ONLY thing I noticed about my OW instructor's BC was that it had a Canadian flag on the shoulder strap. I only figured out what brand it was when I started researching bc's a couple of years later.

I don't think different equipment will confuse a student provided you take the time to explain to them the (relevant) differences between the setups and what they need to do to accommodate these differences. If you assume that your students are going to be confused by a lack of a buckle somewhere, you're assuming they're stupid. that's just me, but again, zero pro experience yet.

 

[Fishpie]

I've been a full time instructor for over 20 years.
For more than half that time I have taught in a BP&W and long hose pool and OW.....there is no problem or conflict here.

 

[Jungho Kim]

I have asked a question and many responses were provided and for that I am thankful and I will be critical of the advice given and make my own decision... I would expect the same of my students and peers... So don't take it the wrong way... Cheers...

How do you know that? You've not experienced being taught in that way, so you're making assumptions on a hypothetical situation.

As I've said: I've taught hundreds of students to dive whilst wearing a BP&W. There's never been any confusion.

Is there a way I can explain that real-life experience, as an instructor, any clearer?

Think about what it means to 'teach hundreds of students'. That's quite a large and relevant sample base... and quite a lot of experience.

You did ask the question here. You were given answers, supported by real-life instructor experience.

If you weren't prepared to accept those answers... and want to refute those experiences.... why bother asking in the first place?

I can't help but think you're underestimating the ability of an instructor to convey knowledge... and/or underestimate the ability of a student to absorb that knowledge. Open Water is a pretty simplistic course and there's plenty of scope to exceed the bare minimum requirements of that course for the student's benefit.

You mentioned earlier a perception that the OW course was generally viewed as insufficient "based upon the skill levels of many OW students". And yet, you view 'giving students less' as a solution to this?

You've also stated another inaccurate presumption several times:





Why assume that the course is short? PADI provide a minimum course requirement. There's no limit imposed in respect of time, dives or practice on the course. An instructor has all the time in the world to teach to their own satisfaction and ensure student competence in the pre-designated structure of skills.

IF an instructor/dive operation decide to impose duration/practice limitations on that course, then they do so at their own behest, for their own reasons. I'd suggest profitability and turnover are primary reasons for this.

This highlight a critical variation in perspective... that any potential dive pro should be aware of.

(1) Some instructors/operations provide the minimum required training, fulfilling the minimum standards for certification. 5 confined sessions/4 open water dives - and do the best you can within that strict framework. Nothing more, nothing less. Students pay for x confined session and y open water dives. Everything has to be fitted within that. If it can't be, then it is disregarded, providing the minimum agency requirements are met.

(2) Some instructors/operations provide the necessary training for a student to become a safe and confident scuba diver. Whilst the minimum requirements are always achieved, they will normally go beyond them to achieve a desired end-state in physical and psychological performance. Students pay to become competent scuba divers. Nothing is disregarded. There is no strict structure that limits that development.

So, what does a student pay for?

To become a safe, confident diver?.... or to be provided with the minimum feasible training to satisfy a pre-set and absolutely minimal structure of training, as designated by the agency?

Results orientated or provision orientated? What should dictate how we provide scuba tuition?

 

[japan-diver]

Not to retype what DevonDiver has already posted but I have certified thousands of students and just about all of the staff that has worked for me over the past 15 or so years have taught in a a BP/W most with long hoses and we have never had a student confused by the gear set up of the instructors.

 

[randytay]

Are you seriously suggesting a Knighthawk is that different from a Jacket style BC from the perspective of a new student? The releases are very similar to many jacket style BCs.... e.g. quick-release, cumberbund etc... Whereas a BP&W is quite different... How would the instructor demonstrate skills such as taking your BC on and off at the surface and underwater when the releases are so different? Sure I suppose it can be done but why? A lot of information is packed into a short time in a PADI OW class and perhaps helping the student learn the basics first is the way to go... Then make them aware of different equipment configurations and the benefits of each as they progress...

I was made aware of different BC styles by my instructor when I got my OW... He encouraged me to try different styles while also giving me input into why he dives a BP&W and also a back inflate BC, the LDS happened to have a pool right in the same premises so that is exactly what I did and I have been happy with my choices...

i did not make the suggestion, OP did.

 

[randytay]

A effective way of teaching is through demonstration... How would you demonstrate the skills effectively when you configuration is so different? Even if you could, why would you add that extra complexity? Isn't DIR all about simplicity and doing the right thing in a given context?

Oxymoron. why add the complexity with so many buckles and releases? It IS about simplicity so everyone wears a backplate. Problem solved.

Last I checked, a quick release does not need a skill demonstration or extra lessons to teach. I am pretty sure if you point to one, the students know how to release it. They may be inexperience, but they are not idiots.

And back to skills demonstration: I am seriously wondering HOW different is a bp/w configuration SO different from a jacket BCD that you CANNOT demonstrate any skills effectively to teach. If you cannt do it, don't blame the gear, its a skills problem. :cool2:

 

[ScubabunnyCR]

I love these conversations in scuba board hehehe! OK, my 2 cents, There is nothing wrong with using BP&W as an instructor or DM it's what you are comfortable in too teach and lead. When I get DM and instructor candidates in I never ask them to change their gear, its best to work with what they have BUT I have found that those that use BP&W have borrowed jacket style BCDs from us which is perfectly ok, just for the pool sessions and purposes of Demos, so that the students can really copy exactly what they are doing. Try it all out and go with what is comfortable for you. You certainly should not be forced to buy additional equipment if you already have equipment that works. Good luck and have fun with your courses : )

 

[mrdohc]

BP/W or jacket or back inflated are all fine. It is the matter which suit you the best. A good diver / instructor should be able to dive in all of them comfortably. For confined water or in the pool, where you will need to do demonstration, it is better to wear the same type of BCD as your student IMO. Doing that just make life easier and remember you usually have limited time to use the pool (being in Toronto). Open water, it doesn't really matter much because you do not need to do demonstration. On the other hand, try to think from the LDS side. Obviously a lot of time, LDS owner would like you to wear whatever they sell. Why, it is because it will help the sale. LDS relies on equipment sales as everyone should know, open water diver course does not make money. If LDS cannot survey the business, we instructors will have no student to teach in other word we are out of business too. How many of us can generate business without the LDS? Not too many..... Also we all know there is lots of ego in the instructors..... why wear doubles when teaching open water student? why have long hoses when you are teaching ow student. There is obvious reason in the PADI standard you don't dive a CCR with open water student. So IMO, try to wear whatever your LDS (boss) want you to wear while teaching for the LDS. If you are teaching independently, who care what you are wearing, as long as you are comfortable and not breaking the standard. If you need more pool rental time, let's be it, you pay for it, good for you if your students willing to pay you more money for more pool time. If you think it is not fair for you to buy another brand of equipment while you are teaching for that particular shop, then consider using the shop rental equipment, or find other LDS that sell whatever you are wearing. Back to the OP question, just any BCD will do the work as long as it suit you. The bottom line is whether that particular BCD will be able to aid your teaching and whether the LDS owner has problem of you wearing that BCD. As for pocket or storage, what really you are carrying out to the open water, is your teaching slate or for most, a spare mask. As for confined water (pool), there is a pool deck. Just my 2 cents.