Which regulator should you donate?

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OK... IF (and that's a big "if"), I am diving my 7 ft/bungeed octo, DIN, dual first stage set-up, then I donate the l-o-n-g hose which is attached to the primary.

But... IF (just as big, mind you), I am diving a "normal" yoke style, single first stage set-up, then I also donate the l-o-n-g hose, which is now attached to the octo. No, it's not 7 ft long, but it is longer than my primary hose and so the poor sot gets it.

I test all regulators and secure them before I dive, and make sure that both my buddy and I know their precise location. Conveniently, if my octo were to fail, it would free-flow (that's how they fail, ya see?), and I would have ended my dive already. But either way, I donate the l-o-n-g hose.

So... it doesn't matter what I give the OOA diver... as long as we agree on it BEFORE we hit the suds. It matters more that I am there to make sure he never runs out of gas (and him for me), and that if I am incompetent/inobservant enough to allow that to happen, then I better had do the next best thing and offer him my longest hose.
 
budgy once bubbled...
I consider the concept of expecting to be able to use a buddy as a primary back up sourse of air in an OOA situation flawed. Based on observation and practical experience of buddying with several hundred individuals from different training agencies I reckon the only practical method with any reasonable chance of success in a real emergency, is to carry an independant alternative air source.
A bungy necklace is a potential noose around your neck and if you ever release your equipment in a hurry, there will be a heavy weight at the end of it.

So do you dive doubles with an isolation manifold or independents?

Reliance upon a buddy is only a problem if the divers' buddy skills are a problem. I've been diving with my current team for about 2 years. We've never seperated or had any similar issues. That's why we practice together at least 2 or 3 times per month in a quarry with very low vis.

It would take one serious emergency for me to drop a set of double 104's in the water. If I did, however, the bungee would pull loose with no problem.
 
The most dependable way to insure that an OOA diver gets a working regulator is to donate the primary. You are verifying its operability right here - right now. No other method presents a greater degree of probability giving the desired result of providing the OOA diver with a working regulator.

Donating the primary does present the issue of having two divers without an air source in their mouth to breath from. OOA diver is out of gas anyways. But this interruption in continuos breathing access creates an increased risk to the donating diver with respect to breathing resumption which is now dependent on restoring the regulator to the mouth - over non interrupted breathing access, when octo is donated.

This increase in risk is not theoretical or impossible. It is within the realm of possibility for all. It is possible that you have removed and replaced the regulator from your mouth a millionth times without incident, but on the millionth and one time you start choking and gagging with no regulator in your mouth. Let’s just attribute this to the nature of our imperfection and general unpredictability. Things can and will happen. Thus we are dealing with probabilities, in this case risk assessment, since this a negative consequence.

The increased risk this practice entails has to be measured as accurately as possible taking into consideration the peculiar and specific characteristics each individual diver possesses, as well as environmental conditions which have on impact on a divers ability to perform.

When this is done we will find that for some the increased risk is miniscule. This is possibly also true for the majority of divers after undergoing training and practice. However, we will also find that for some divers this maneuver will present a not so negligible risk increase. And for still a fewer number of divers this maneuver will
present a significant increased risk of complications. Since diving entails the possibility of accidental or willful removal of primary regulator from the mouth, these divers should seriously consider the risks they are taking when practicing this activity. Training and practice will help some - but donating the primary will not be the most practical, efficient, lowest risk option for some divers or their buddies. Quite the contrary, a diver uncomfortable or one prone to stressing to a degree that impairs his behavior when the regulator is out of his mouth should avoid using this method of donating gas.

Now lets assess the risk of having an octo malfunction. If it is operated, maintained and tested diligently the risk of malfunction will be miniscul. Proper maintenance, pre dive test, periodic testing throughout the dive, proper attachment in order to provide ease of access and minimal contamination, proper cleaning and storage after the dive.

We will likely find, if tested, that for the majority of divers who practice the above care with their octo’s only a minimal increase in probability of operability will be gained by donating their primary as opposed to their octo. However, we should also consider that there is a real risk, even if minute, of encountering a situation where the OOA diver will perish or panic in the time it takes to remedy a malfunctioning octo. Which can place the donor at risk as well.

This risk assessment must again, inescapably, be carried out taking into consideration the specific diver and specific circumstances. A diver that has a cheap octo, and/or does not
maintain it well, presents an increased risk that it will not function properly. Likewise if he drags it around. Some environmental conditions and dive requirements can also increase the risk of malfunction. Lots of solid matter in the water, squeezing through
spaces where contact is made with solid surfaces. Measures can always be taken to minimize negative exposure, but we are dealing with maximizing or minimizing probabilities, not eliminating them. For some of these divers and under some of these conditions it would be best to donate the primary regulator, assuming they are comfortable doing so.


The probability of some of the worst case scenarios developing, or of a having a scenario that compounds into a worst case event may be minute indeed in some cases. Nonetheless, it is in the interest of every diver to inform him/her self with objective facts, so that within reason, an accurate and objective understanding of the available options and risks encountered can be realized and assessed. When looking at the overall picture, these statistically minute chance of occurrence will occur and those not prepared for them will pay the ultimate price. It is true that we can’t prepare for all foreseeable circumstances, much less unforeseeable ones, specially when we consider the cause and effect that is created when measures are implemented in order to minimize risk in one area. The risk is often shifted to another area, sometimes increasing it overall, something that often only becomes apparent when a thorough risk assessment is conducted.

All in all, under ideal conditions and with competent divers there probably is an insignificant difference in probability of operability comparing the donation of the primary or the octo. On the other hand, as I think I’ve explained, when we consider the specific variables in any particular situation, the difference in risk can be significant from one method to the other.
 
When you dive with the same people you have the time to develop buddy diving skills as a team. Think carefully about your SOP and for those of us who regularly dive with strangers ask yourself. How attentive are you as a buddy? How far away do you dive from a buddy? How often will you check their position in relation to youself? Now ask, how does your average buddy dive and what standards do they have. If you or they had an OOA problem how sure are you, that you could always get together during the dive and donate or receive an octopus within time. How much time would you or your buddy need? If your SOP for an OOA emergency is to donate or receive with a buddy, you or your buddy's survival procedure, is dependant on having sufficient time and speed to out fin and catch up with a buddy, whilst holding a partial breath, or with no breath and the buddy finning away from you with no idea of the emergency. Now consider:- How fast you normally fin, what do you think is the maximum distance you should be apart and how often you should you check on each other? Last question, what did your training agency teach you?
:D
 
What happened. I just woke up. Let's all just watch some good ole Saturday College Football and give it a rest. I'll dive my way and they'll dive their way. Problem sovled. Everyone is happy.
 
If you're the one with the hogarthian setup, then it's the OOA diver that has to worry about getting air from you. You've practiced how to donate and go to your backup. It's a non-issue for you.

If you're the one OOA and your buddy is not configured hogarthian, then you've got a different problem.:D

The rest of your comment is just standard buddy pre-dive communication.



budgy once bubbled...
When you dive with the same people you have the time to develop buddy diving skills as a team. Think carefully about your SOP and for those of us who regularly dive with strangers ask yourself. How attentive are you as a buddy? How far away do you dive from a buddy? How often will you check their position in relation to youself? Now ask, how does your average buddy dive and what standards do they have. If you or they had an OOA problem how sure are you, that you could always get together during the dive and donate or receive an octopus within time. How much time would you or your buddy need? If your SOP for an OOA emergency is to donate or receive with a buddy, you or your buddy's survival procedure, is dependant on having sufficient time and speed to out fin and catch up with a buddy, whilst holding a partial breath, or with no breath and the buddy finning away from you with no idea of the emergency. Now consider:- How fast you normally fin, what do you think is the maximum distance you should be apart and how often you should you check on each other? Last question, what did your training agency teach you?
:D
 
detroit diver once bubbled...
If you're the one with the hogarthian setup, then it's the OOA diver that has to worry about getting air from you. You've practiced how to donate and go to your backup. It's a non-issue for you.

If you're the one OOA and your buddy is not configured hogarthian, then you've got a different problem.:D

The rest of your comment is just standard buddy pre-dive communication.


Yeah, but you still think your way is "flawless". MY GOD! Nothing is perfect man, look at Southwest airlines yesterday!
 
roakey once bubbled...

Because I want to give my buddy and I the best chance of survival. That's what seperates a buddy TEAM from the "my air, you can suck water" crowd.

Donating the octo doesn't give my buddy and I the best possible chance of survival because you do not have the level of control, the level of test and the level of reliability with an octo anchored out of sight and out of mind.

You may consider your buddy disposable, I don't.

You don't even have a filament, do you?

Roak

Brilliant, Just Brilliant!

RegulatorRoakey,

Do I consider my buddy disposable? That's about the stupidist question I've ever heard in my entire life. With those kind of responses no wonder you only have three followers. If you were halfway civil you might have about 10,000 followers and listeners. Good luck with your adventures. By the way, you do realize that the short hose and donating the octo is still mainstream don't you? Mainstream by a freaking LANDSLIDE! LMAO! Your in the minority and will be for a long long time. But I'm glad you do have some followers to fall back on. LMAO. At least you guys aren't alone. You still have each other. I've probably got more than 10 million certified divers out there. I bet the long hose config is probably just coming up on 15,000 divers if that! LMAO... But you put up a good fight. We'll give you that! LMAO
 
roakey once bubbled...

At which point it'll pop off the mouthpiece and be gone along with your equipment.

Non problem.

Roak

You lose your mouthpiece? It just pops off? And this is a non problem too?
 
CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


You lose your mouthpiece? It just pops off? And this is a non problem too?

Actually, that depend upon how you rig it.

I've got the mouthpiece secured with a zip tie. Instead of routing the bungee through that zip tie, I use a second zip tie.

If the bungee got yanked hard, for whatever reason, the bungee would pull off, but the mouthpiece would remain secured.
 

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