Which Is Better

[jimholcomb]

I rarely agree with Walter on much of anything but I found his comparisons and evaluation quite good and have AN affiliation with YMCA. As many who know me are aware, I have been a VERY outspoken advocate of increasing standards and enforcement of those standards by ALL agencies. PADI's enforcement record - when they have had known and proven standards violations is dismal as heck at best. And, yes, I speak.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Let me first say that I'm PADI certified ;-0 , and I haven't gone through and compared all the agencies merits and flaws.

One of my biggest beefs with PADI is the 60FPM ascent rate they STILL advocate. SSI advocates 30FPM which is mucho better. On that basis alone, I would recommend SSI. I would also take a look at NAUI, but only because Bruce Weinke is involved in that organization. I'm not sure if his presence has made a difference in their decompression procedures.

On another note, there are a few instructors out there, of any agency, that have learned the right stuff and choose to train their students differently than the agency require. It CAN be up to the instructor, but comparing agency to agency ..... not 100% sure.

Good luck.

Mike

PS. I agree with JH that the standards should be significantly raised from OW all the way up to master instructor in all of the recreational agencies. I base this on my experiences on charter boats and seeing ineptitude on virtually every aspect of diving by so many certified divers. That was just my own personnal opinion.

 

[scuba_adventurer]

What I have seen of PADI's quality assurance team has been the opposite of your experiences. An instructor that I know got a very bad QA survey filled out on him (it was by his ex-wife). PADI then surveyed every student that he had ever taught in the last year and found some minor mistakes. They counseled him on the problems, and reiterated some things he needed to do differently, but did not revoke his certification. They were very professional and their intent was obviously good.

My new instructor manual has in it that a 30 fpm ascent rate is preferred, but 60 fpm is the absolute limit.

 

[neil]

Let me add my 2 cents.

Scuba Adventurer: I wouldn't be so happy to declare that 31 hours is too long for a certification class. Mine usually take that or longer. Depends on how big the class is. It's no point of pride to get people done sooner. Thoroughness, not expedience is what I strive for. Can't have incompetent divers with MY name on their card out there on dive boats, driving Mike (Yooper) crazy! Also, in my experience in working at a PADI 5 star shop, nobody actually ever called to see if we were having our air sampled (of course we did). Lastly, PADI QA is so after-the-fact. The IDC is way too easy IMO. I think better instructor training would lessen the need for QA.

Mike: Picking an agency on the basis of how good you think their decompression procedures are is a bit beyond what a person seeking to learn to dive is going to be interested in. PADI is the only agency to have had tables tested just for them, as far as I know. All others use already established tables. Most of the diving YOU do is well beyond what PADI tables were designed for, but you wouldn't have known that in the beginning. BTW, NAUI uses 30 fpm.

Walter: As I've said before, your comparison is a little too literal. It may be correct according to the written standard, but it doesn't take into account some of the latitude granted NAUI instructors in particular, and a fairly consistant
tradition of teaching skills across most agencies.
While it IS more or less correct (I've found more stuff to change), it suggests to me that a person should choose an agency based on the thickness of their curriculum. I don't believe that't the whole story. But it is a fine compilation and you should continue to update it.

I'm a NAUI and a PADI instructor. If anybody has any questions comparing these two agencies, I'd be glad to try and answer, although I deny that I am an absolute expert.

Neil

 

[DivingGal]

Wow - as someone else said, a can of worms...

Each agency has it's good point, each has areas which could stand for improvement. I recently attended a lecture/workshop held by an individual who is responsible for training Public Safety Divers all around the world (usually rescue divers, police divers or the like), and this question was raised - she said basically the same thing "there is no one best agency, they all have areas which need improvement"

just my 0.02 worth

 

[Walter]

scuba_adventurer,

"Objective comparisons should first, not be done by an instructor with any agency, and second, not include false information."

I can understand your reservations about an instructor making the comparison, that is why the main part of the comparison is strictly an objective check list. The analysis and conclusion are clearly subjective and may be biased, although I believe I was fair you are certainly free to disagree as those sections are certainly my opinion. I totally agree with you that such a comparison should not include false information. I do not believe mine does although mistakes are possible. If you've found mistakes please point them out to me and I will change them.

"You present the information in a somewhat unclear format making it hard for a true comparison."

I'm not sure what you feel is unclear, but I will be happy to explain things to you. Perhaps it is due to the fact that every agency organizes its course differently, it is sometimes difficult to compare one to one.

"My biggest problem was with your comments about the rigidity of the PADI system. The PADI System is very flexible, you just may incur some extra liability if you step outside of what is outlined."

This is not accurate. I would violate PADI standards if I taught my course as a PADI course (since I am not nor have I ever been a PADI instructor this is entirely hypothetical). I introduce SCUBA in the third pool session. The first two sessions I devote to swimming and skin diving. PADI requires SCUBA to be introduced in the first pool session. You can move skills around in any order you with as long as you keep then in the required session.

"PADI does not force divers to do everything in one course, but it does allow it's instructors to add pertinant local information."

No agency forces you to do anything, but all agencies have standards. Those standards are requirements. If you do not cover requirements you have violated standards. This is true with PADI and all other agencies. You are correct, PADI does allow instructors to add to the course. Actually, the PADI instructor manual recommends instructors cover certain items that are not required by their standards.

"Does an open water diver really have to know the three different types of Embolisms?"

Three types of embolisms? Please explain three types to me, I'm only aware of one. I'm always eager to learn.

"He says the YMCA course takes at least twice as long to teach, so I am interested in where you got your numbers for classroom time."

He is correct, a typical YMCA course does take much longer to teach than a typical PADI course. I'm not sure if twice as long is accurate, but the additional time is significant. My numbers for time came directly from the agencies themselves. Look in the General Explanation section for references.

"He does not teach it purely because it is not practical for most people who want to learn how to dive."

That is why PADI is the largest agency in the world. Most people want quick and easy. Some prefer a more comprehensive approach. Don't worry, PADI will remain the largest for this reason.

"I don't know if you refer your prospective students to this page so that they think you are the scuba god because you teach YMCA or what, but your intentions do not benefit the dive industry."

SCUBA God? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm far from perfect and I'm well aware of it. If you are interested in the size of my ego I am not the best person to ask. It is extremely difficult to be objective on such a topic concerning oneself. Ask those on the board who know me personally. Actually, there are few situation in which I believe this comparison is helpful by itself. If someone wants a quick comparison of agencies I'll refer them to it. In most cases it is merely part of a much larger selection process. The entire new diver section (which includes the comparison) is much more helpful to prospective student when used together. There is much more to choosing a course than which agency.

"I just don't think you should make unfair comparisons."

I agree and I don't believe I have.

"PADI protects its divers by testing air at all PADI dive centers and implementing a very strict quality assurance program."

PADI does not check air at all PADI Dive Centers. PADI does have a quality assurance program as do all agencies.

"Nearly every student will get a survey"

Not true, I have discussed this with the QA department at PADI and while I do not remember the exact numbers I believe it is 1/3. At any rate it is less than 50% which is far from "nearly every student."

"No certification is as recognized and taught worldwide like PADI."

With the "and" your statement is true. It is however misleading. PADI is much more of a world wide agency if you refer to where it is taught than any other. OTOH, other agencies are as recognized and as readily accepted world wide.

Neil,

You feel the comparison is too literal, others feel it's subjective. Amazing how different people see the same think. I believe you are correct, it is literal. I don't know of any other way to do it while remaining fair and objective.

"it doesn't take into account some of the latitude granted NAUI instructors in particular"

I thought I had that base covered with, "NAUI has an excellent program. It allows instructors flexibility to make changes and develop the best possible course."

If you've found mistakes please send them to me. You know I'll change them.

"it suggests to me that a person should choose an agency based on the thickness of their curriculum."

I've never suggested that. It is one item to consider in choosing a course.

As for dive tables, you are correct that "PADI is the only agency to have had tables tested just for them." OTOH, the RDP is one of the most liberal tables published by any agency.

Diving gal,

"she said basically the same thing 'there is no one best agency, they all have areas which need improvement'."

That is definately true, all have room to improve. Best agency is a matter of opinion.

WWW™

 

[Ber Rabbit]

Quite an interesting bit of discussion going on here. I'm NAUI certified and am slowly working toward my NAUI Instructor certification. I help teach scuba at the local university. Since we are a 2 credit hour course in a quarter (as opposed to semester) system we have 2 hours a day 2 days a week for 10 weeks to complete our requirements. We needed a new instructor for our night class, the other instructor took a new job and could no longer help us. NAUI instructors in the local area aren't easy to come by on one week's notice so the Course Director asked a PADI instructor from a local shop if he could help. Although he's not used to having 40 hours (20 lecture and 20 pool) to teach a course he's done a very good job adapting his PADI course to our established framework. We've had some nice discussions about why our two agencies do things differently and he has changed some of his teaching because he likes NAUI's way better and we have incorporated some of his PADI techniques into our classes. All organizations have good and bad points and keeping an open mind when speaking with someone about their training technique can make us all better divers. When we (at the university) take our OW students out on a dive they are sharp! We have enough time to do a lot of comfort zone building exercises in the pool and divers and boat captains can see that. A particular boat captain who was not exactly thrillled about taking a group of divers with only 4-6 dives under their belts told Gina (our NAUI instructor/course director) "If all of your students are like these you're welcome on my boat anytime!" That's a pretty high compliment in my book. We can all learn things from each other. Remember, I believe the D.A.N. saying goes "A good diver is always training."

Peace, fellow divers let us listen intently and speak positively to one another.

Ber

 

[Butch103]

still comes down to in most cases comfort and faith in the instructor. (not sure faith is the word I am searching for). If you are not comfortable with the instructor what does it matter which organization he/she is with..........

 

[buff]

I don't see anything wrong with getting an instructors certification in 2 months. I'm sure the assumption is that it's not enough time to immerse one's self and acquire the new skills. I have found that divers who are very good divers are like seals....they are at home in the water. You can train someone to dive-almost anyone, who doesn't feel at home in the water. And yet you can see it when these people dive. They are clumsy, awkward divers who are always struggling to get enough air. They are not graceful in the water-they flop and kick like a beached whale. This lack of physical ability hampers one's mental thought processes. You can't be thinking "How do I resucue this student diver" if you, yourself, are struggling. THEY -the poor divers-should not be instructors. But the dive organizations who certify do not screen applicants like the US navy does for fighter pilots. You come in to the shop, plunk down your money, show them your "dive log"(which is so easy to fabricate that it gives a false sense of security to the whole system) and sign up-oh, and plunk down some more money-I looked into it and it's about $1800.00 here in Mpls.
I doubt that a short program is a poor program. I believe that the quality of the program and applicant are what counts. I consider 2 months of intense insturcotor training in diving a "reasonable" amount of time given that the instructor and pupil are dedicated and of QUALITY caliber. No matter what the time "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"....love that country talk.

 

[sea nmf]

Walter:

I am PADI certified. Probably 80% of the items you listed a "N" in for PADI was covered in my course, skin, pool, OW, and classroom included.

So my question is: can I assume that just because it is not in their written standards, that it is up to the individual instructor as to what to teach over and above the standards?

If the answer is yes, then that would probably hold true for any good instructor?

-becky