Which Is Better

[Walter]

Becky,

An excellent point and one I mention in the General Explanation section of the comparison.

"It should be noted that many instructors commonly exceed the standards set forth by their agency. An individual instructor may require skills and or topics not required by his agency."

Even if the agency does not require a particular topic or skill that does not mean you can't learn it in a class taught by an instructor of that agency. While there are instructors who teach the bare minimum there are others who add quality to their classes above what is required by standards. This happens in all agencies and all agencies have some excellent instructors.

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[-=>Larry<=-]

2 more cents from one that jumped into this briar patch on DiverLink and studied Walters comparison as a result.

I'm NAUI and PADI certified to Divemaster and found Walters factual comparison pretty good to my experience. The final part though [where the messages started flowing back to me] is that I hold that finding that perfect match between the Instructors teaching style and your learning style is massively VALUABLE - That's the key extra point for me, and it doesn't correlate to agencies. [and awfully hard to find period!]

 

[Scubadawg]

I did not realize that there was this much controversy or different agencies and instructors , like some one said " a big can of worms" well I will tell you that i got certified from a SSI instructor in springfield missouri whio has been diving since 1967( dont quote me on that ) his qualifications are "SSI Instructor Certifier. SSI Platinum 1000 Instructor. SSI Platinum Pro 5000 Diver." I felt comfortable in him teaching me the proper way and safe way to dive , And he did just that .

P.S
Scubababy, remind me not to ask that question again!!

 

[Lost Yooper]

Hey Neil, I just wanted to quickly respond to your post as matter of clarification:

"Mike: Picking an agency on the basis of how good you think their decompression procedures are is a bit beyond what a person seeking to learn to dive is going to be interested in. PADI is the only agency to have had tables tested just for them, as far as I know. All others use already established tables. Most of the diving YOU do is well beyond what PADI tables were designed for, but you wouldn't have known that in the beginning. BTW, NAUI uses 30 fpm."

Yes, the deco procedures of an agency is beyond what a new person may be interested in, but it's no less important, IMO. Yes, 60fpm is too fast and should not be allowed period, because it there isn't enough leniency at 60FPM. This point is not hammered home enough -- especially the last 20' of ascent which should be less than 30FPM which may not be part of any recreational agency's standards as far as I know.
You will feel worse after a recreational dive to 100' using a 60FPM ascent rate than if you used 30FPM -- this is sub DCI. I've done this type of dive enough to know how people feel afterwards -- I don't care what kind of testing was done, feeling worse is feeling worse.

This is why I don't like PADI -- for whom I'm a part of. I also don't like ANY agency that REQUIRES a friggin' snorkle to be worn .

Later.

Mike

Heck, I just hate everyone! Arg, arg, arg!!

 

[Liquid]

Oh my...

Those who know me know I can't resist to bite on such delicouse worms...

There are few points that I think were not mentioned.

First of all, an important issue is what kind of certification one seeks. In the "lower ranks" of certification, it dosen't really matter which agency you use. It starts to matter when seeking instruction as dive-master, as the differences between the organizations may affect you profesionaly.

The differences in standards between agencys are mostly cosmetic, and do not really matter a lot. The level of a course is much more dependant on the individual instructor and center.

The more important differences between organizations is their philosophy, and aim. For example- SSI's point of view is much deifferent than that of PADI becouse PADI is an organization of instructors, while SSI is an organization of dive-centers. It is a huge difference. My opinion here (purely personal) is that an organization of instructors is less likely to keep an eye on it's members, than an organization of dive-centers on it's employees. This is also why I chose to instruct SSI.

There are differences in instructional philosophies as well, such as in SSI an instructor is encouraged to demand more than the standrds, acording to his experience, while in PADI such things may couse an instructor to lose his liabilty in certain cases. There is much more to it, and I am far from objective (I belive it's known that I am no PADI lover), so to sum it with an advice:

If one is seeking o/w certification (or aow for this matter) he should go to a center and see if it seems reliable. A none diver can't understand much in the diving stuff anyway, but to have a good or bad impression about the personnel requiers ubsolutley no knowledge in diving. When aiming at the higher levels, one should carefully examine the standards, and try to understand the philosophy before enrolling.

 

[Walter]

Liquid, we obviously live in totally different worlds.

"The differences in standards between agencys are mostly cosmetic, and do not really matter a lot."

The differences are large and very real. You may not believe they are important, but they are far from "cosmetic." Personally, I feel they are critical.

"The more important differences between organizations is their philosophy, and aim."

I agree, philosophy is very important as it is what guides an agency in determining standards.

"PADI is an organization of instructors"

Not really. It's a marketing organization, instructors have no say in its direction.

"My opinion here (purely personal) is that an organization of instructors is less likely to keep an eye on it's members, than an organization of dive-centers on it's employees."

Possibly, but OTOH it can place non instructors in a position to call the shots that should be called by the instructor. If you are interested in quality of instruction perhaps a non profit approach might be better for keeping an eye on instructors.

"There are differences in instructional philosophies as well"

There certainly are, but you didn't even scratch the surface.

" SSI an instructor is encouraged to demand more than the standrds, acording to his experience, while in PADI such things may couse an instructor to lose his liabilty in certain cases."

While I'm rarely accused of being a PADI supporter that statement is grossly unfair to PADI. PADI does encourage teaching above standards. Personally, I think it would be better to raise those standards, but to imply they don't want instructors to add to the course is simply not true.

"If one is seeking o/w certification (or aow for this matter) he should go to a center and see if it seems reliable. A none diver can't understand much in the diving stuff anyway"

There is much more to selecting a course than that and agency is merely one of many things to consider. A non-diver can easily understand the issues involved in wisely choosing the best course.

"When aiming at the higher levels, one should carefully examine the standards, and try to understand the philosophy before enrolling."

I agree and disagree. When selecting an OW class, one should select the best class available, standards is part of that process. When aiming to teach for a particular agency, standards and philosophy become all important.

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[Liquid]

Walter:

What I ment by "cosmetic", is that I cant really figure, acording to training standards alone, which agency is better. I had a look on the list in your site, and personaly, I dont think the difrences between the agencys is big enough to matter too much, so I dont think it's this much of a factor for choosing a course.

You are right about PADI being a marketing organization, but still, the initials stands for "Profesional asociation of scuba instructros", while SSI's stands for "Scuba Schools International".

-->"My opinion here (purely personal) is that an organization of instructors is less likely to keep an eye on it's members, than an organization of dive-centers on it's employees."

Possibly, but OTOH it can place non instructors in a position to call the shots that should be called by the instructor. If you are interested in quality of instruction perhaps a non profit approach might be better for keeping an eye on instructors. <--

In every SSI center, acording to standards, there must be a person that supervises the instructors, and this person is suposed to be an experienced instructor. Where I worked, This function was filled by one of the best instructors I know, and when I did something wrong she was never embaresed to let me know. It helped a lot, aspecialy when I just started. A PADI instructor, on the other hand, can work without affiliation to any center, without anyone to tell him something if he works wrong, and it is easier for him to bend the rules.

"There are differences in instructional philosophies as well"

There certainly are, but you didn't even scratch the surface.

I know I didnt, as it wasn't my intention. I did it in other threads, a while ago.

About PADI instructors and freedom of standards- in certain cases (not in most!) a PADI instructor must work acording to PADI's layout much more than other agencys. This also why in PADI's profesional literature, everything is a lot more detailed than in SSI, where you are given only the highlites, and expected to fill it from you knowledge and experience. PADI's layout even includes time schedules, in minuets, for every part of the course. As for skill, In PADI, not certifing someone becouse he did not pass an exercise tha is not requiered by the system may leave an instructor without liabilty (this was explained to me by a friend, a PADI instructor) and so in other certain cases.


And as for your last remark- I dont think that a none diver will understand good enough the standards and the differences. Ascent rate will mean nothing to a none diver. Of course, consulting with a diving friend is alwais recomended. But still, when you are not familiar with diving, he best thing you can rely on is your common sense.

 

[Lost Yooper]

:grrr:

Upon going through the various training organizations, I noticed that both PADI and NAUI endorse DEEP AIR diving. PADI has a course that will take students to 165' and NAUI to 180'. I've long since lost respect for agencies that endorse, advocate, teach, or otherwise allow the use of an END below 130'. This is GREED talking folks -- plain and simple. They are putting money before their student's safety and that AIN'T RIGHT!!

PADI and NAUI, you're out. SSI and YMCA get the nod unless they follow suit and offer deep air.

Mike

PS. I'll still say that there are a few instructors (from all the agencies) who are smart enough not to use, much less teach, deep air. So, it CAN come down to the instructor, but comparing agency to agency, it just got a bunch easier as far as I'm concerned.

 

[jmsdiver]

A Can of Worms, Yes....

I do not believe that one Agency is better than another, however, the instructor and his/her experiences, level of aptitude, the motivation to keep up on the changes and latest developments in the industry, and the ability to teach those aforementioned in a concise and meaningful understood manner are really the bread and butter of a good certification experience. This is in comparison to the person that goes from OW to Instructor in a 6 month time frame because they meet all the minimum standards and can past the skills and written tests. This later instructor probably can only speak following the standards to a tee because they really don't have any experience outside of that outline and are unable to bring the underwater world into the classroom. So, in essence, agency may not be a factor but rather it's the instructor that makes a different.

Furthermore, I believe that philophies differ between agencies and that it's up to the individual to find a good fit with their own beliefs. I have recently begun to re-evaluate my affiliation with the industry because I am not liking what I am seeing in the entry level course and what kind of diver it produces. I've seen way too many poor divers just fresh out of class. I don't expect divers to be perfect, but some of the basics are lost and I firmly believe that they are lost because they are either eliminated from the course or the course moves too fast for it to sink in.

Previously from Diving Gal:

I recently attended a lecture/workshop held by an individual who is responsible for training Public Safety Divers all around the world (usually rescue divers, police divers or the like), and this question was raised - she said basically the same thing "there is no one best agency, they all have areas which need improvement"

Could you please tell me the agency that did this. I'm looking for information on Public Safety Diving and it's techniques and philosophies. There isn't really much out there on the net; found a couple of training agencies and a couple of out of print books.

Cheers all

 

[Walter]

Mike,

YMCA's policy does not advocate deep air. YMCA does not teach any course that goes deeper than 100 ft.

Perhaps Liquid can fill us in on SSI as I don't have their standards.

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