Where to dive in Indonesia in April?

[ocdiver1]

I guess it's all about expectations and what one is "up for." To me, getting from A to B in Indonesia in one day, with reasonable flight times and costs, without involving a "red eye," an overnight anywhere, or long travel by car/boat after arrival doesn't constitute difficult. I wasn't implying anyone was saying "don't go," I like to just be realistic in these posts, and express my views as if I were a traveler in the same position...if I'd just spent a ton of money on maybe a once in a lifetime trip to Indonesia, traveling perhaps halfway around the world, I wouldn't want someone to get the impression that getting to a place like RA was just going to be prohibitively difficult and thereby maybe miss out on it. I'd say you're here...go for it. An 11 hour trip with a couple of transfers is nothing unusual for Indonesia..and the diving far makes up for all of it!!

 

[Quero]

I think maybe you're special that way, ocd. I do a lot of bookings for a lot of divers, and one thing is certain--the vast majority would balk at a second dive destination within one country that took as many flight segments to get to as Raja Ampat does after a Komodo liveaboard (and the Komodo trip will most likely involve flights as well). When Raja Ampat is the principal destination, people just do what it takes to get there; in fact I've got several customers going to Raja Ampat who are putting up with multiple domestic Indon segments to do so. But for people who are thinking of staying on before/after their primary destination and want to dive at a second destination, this second destination has to actually be fairly easy to get to. Here's an example--I've got some people going to Raja Ampat (their primary destination for this trip) in a few weeks who wanted to add on both before and afterwards. We looked at so many possibilities, but in the end they opted to stay fairly close to Manado--a week at Lembeh before Raja Ampat and a week at Gorontalo afterwards. The key factor in the choices was travel. That's what I mean by "realistic"--recognizing that the overwhelming majority of people don't cheerfully spend 12 hours on domestic travel when they are looking for an add on to the trip they've decided to do. Yes, it can be done, and yes the rewards can be significant, but, realistically it just doesn't "fly" with most people.

 

[ocdiver1]

I can't speak from the position of being in the travel industry, only as a traveler, but that surprises me. I can't imagine going all that way, spending all that money, not being able to perhaps come back for years...yet missing out on something like RA just over travel time and a couple of connections. I just wanted to offer an upbeat persepctive that, in my mind, the proposed option is not a big deal and many people would do it, and would hate for someone going to Indo for the first time to miss out on RA (or any other second destination) over a perception of "difficulty."

 

[Quero]

Don't get me wrong, ocd, I LOVE customers like you! It's so much easier to get it right when they're very flexible about travel itineraries and time and ferry rides, etc. I mean I've even had Bali-bound customers not want to go to Lembongan for a couple of days because there's no jetty at Sanur or Lembongan to get on the ferry (you have to wade to the boat and drag your stuff over sand). And one guy who wrote a review of a Thailand liveaboard trip I organized for him complained online that his transfer from Phuket to his dive boat at Khao Lak took an hour and a half by mini-bus. For most people, all that work and all those connections and all the stress of possible unreliable flights and so many fees for overweight dive gear etc simply spoils the fun and pleasure. They just want to get away from all those things and relax. I can see that. Everybody's different, and believe me (in total honesty), most people want a little adventure but not as much as all those connections entail. Their tolerance for complicated travel arrangements drops proportionately as their thirst for adventure is satisfied, which nearly always happens with the primary destination.

You appear to be rather adventuresome, as am I. But I have to face facts and give advice based on actual trends in travelers' preferences, not my own personal preferences. I find that if people's expectations are realistic, they don't get upset when they find that things are not perfectly straightforward and simple--when they know they will transit through 4 airports over a very long day just in domestic travel to get to a great dive destination, when they know they will have to wade through the surf to get to their ferry for an island-hopping adventure, when they know their hotel has fantastic views because it is up a hill they will have to climb after they get off their dive boat....

Part of being a good travel consultant is listening to the kinds of questions people ask and figuring out what it is they really want rather than superimposing my own preferences and desires onto the question. Consider these two questions, for example:
Raja Ampat sounds great! How do I get there?
Raja Ampat sounds great! But is it difficult to get there?
The first question is one you might ask. Then second is more like what the member asked in this thread. Which one shows a niggling worry about travel arrangements? Is is fair to gloss over difficulties? In my experience, that amounts to a hard-sell, which pushes buyers to make the choice the person giving the advice wants them to make rather than listing honest pros and cons and letting the buyers weigh them themselves.

OCD, you and I are looking at it from different perspectives, both of which are valuable. Mine is simply one based on multiple travelers' experiences that I know about indirectly while yours is based on a single person's direct experience. My job is to listen and advise what fits each individual visitor's needs best. I simply cannot gloss over potential pitfalls and maintain my professional integrity.

 

[scorpiofish]

Bali to Surabaya to Manado to Sorong in one day? What time do you arrive in Sorong? It has to be before dark.

I'd do it instead of overnighting in Makassar. Lion/wings all the way?

 

[Luko]

Part of being a good travel consultant is listening to the kinds of questions people ask and figuring out what it is they really want rather than superimposing my own preferences and desires onto the question.

that might be off topic, but I agree with OCD on the fact that most of the times "travel consultants" tend to propose conservative itineraries for many reasons, one of them is the fear of badmouthing, so "better tame than sorry" would be a motto...I understand this while agreeing on a commercial deal, although I meet lots of people in various boards who would have liked to go a little beyond what has been proposed (and this is where I am very happy to share some of the things I know or unusual places I've been to).
But since we're on a non commercial board and noone here is trying to sell stuff (Or am I wrong?) I believe there could be a less conservative approach, that is to say i don't think anyone would blame Quero for shedding some light or tips on places/itineraries out of the trodden path.
At least that's what one would expect for an Internet Board to find insiders tips (otherwise he'd contact directly with any "travel consultant").

Disclaimer : btw I'm a consultant in the tourism industry, which means dealing/consulting for tourism professionals.

 

[Quero]

Actually, Luko, since you're asking me to share....
Some travel consultants might recommend overly-conservative itineraries, but not me. I listen to my customers, and I do propose all sorts of alternatives, from the more adventurous to the decidedly tamer, depending on how they answer my probing questions about their needs. Generally speaking, I exchange dozens of emails with my customers before we are ready to book anything, and they are aware of all the pros and cons of each option. My customers ask questions like "how easy is it to get there," and I answer truthfully and fully. It's up to them to take that information and decide how it meshes with their personal preferences and needs. I don't gloss over difficulties or complexities, and I don't try to sell anything. I believe I mentioned my customer who is going soon to Raja Ampat. I booked him for a stay at Gorontalo as well, and that's certainly "off the trodden path," and yet it met this customer's need to not do any complicated itineraries in addition to his Raja Ampat trip. You see, I listened and was able to propose something that worked for him rather than what I myself might have preferred for him to do (maybe a Similans or Burma liveaboard--these are logistically easier for me to arrange, so of course I'm happy to sell them). In this thread, I answered the direct questions truthfully, and others chose to contradict my information. Nevertheless, I do think my comments continue to be truthful and unbiased, and I stand by them.

 

[Luko]

I listen to my customers, and I do propose all sorts of alternatives

Ok, point taken but my trope was also meant as a reply to your suggestionf to kcat which recommended Bali whereas I read the requirement (or listened taking your own terms) "doesn't like big resorts", "jungle and volcanoes", etc. Personally, I thought for instance recommending inland Flores like one of the member suggested was probably apt for the travelers needs, at least for the moment I don't see anything written for kcat that would go against this match, and there are lots of other possibilities if you ask me...

My point is that one the goals of the boards are to give ideas, suggestions, even broaden the views and giving the keys to whether it should fit or not... but you can't say that you can assess from a post or two exactly what is behind the poster's mind.
If I get down to my personal experience, sometimes I have asked questions in this board and got in return quite disappointing answers because they simply couldn't go past either commercial replies (not talking about yours, but there was a time if you posted a question on Bali you immediately got an answer from various dive operators who swore they would give you the ultimate experience while the only one I dealt through this board ended to a spectacular fiasco so I had to send him back after not even one day :shocked2 or very "classic" answers. The only interesting discussions I had were PM'ed with members I contacted directly because I knew they had specific tips on places I wanted to know.

Once again, nothing meant against you, Quero. It's just that since this board shouldn't be oriented to fishing for customers, I would like "people in the know" to be sometimes less restrictive about the choices that are available since I don't believe that anyone can assess all the complexity of a request within two 5 lines posts.
May be then we could have less numerous posts titled "10 days in Bali : which dives?".

 

[Quero]

Ok, point taken but my trope was also meant as a reply to your suggestionf to kcat which recommended Bali whereas I read the requirement (or listened taking your own terms) "doesn't like big resorts", "jungle and volcanoes", etc.

I hear you, Luko, but this is a fairly complex thread with different visitors at different times wanting different things. I believe you are confusing my reply to wetsuit about a Bali itinerary with my reply to the OP, kcat, in which I did not recommend Bali:

For the OP, kcat: The best option for liveaboard diving in Indonesia in April is Komodo.

Further on you wrote...

Once again, nothing meant against you, Quero. It's just that since this board shouldn't be oriented to fishing for customers, I would like "people in the know" to be sometimes less restrictive about the choices that are available since I don't believe that anyone can assess all the complexity of a request within two 5 lines posts.
May be then we could have less numerous posts titled "10 days in Bali : which dives?".

Thanks, Luko, for not lumping me with those in-your-face dive travel professionals who make no other contribution to the board than "fishing for customers." You may be aware that I am a Staff member of SB in the role of Senior Moderator here on the Board, and one of my duties is to make sure that commercially oriented replies don't go over the top. So I'm pretty careful about my own posts, understandably. and I post all over the board, not just in my regional forums where customers might find me (though of course I'm pleased if they do seek me out or accept an offer of professional assistance).

Having said that, there's a balance that exists on the board between those with the greatest insider knowledge (most often the businesses that work in the region, but in a very few instances people like you who have significant and very frequent experience traveling the region), and those individuals who have one or two first-hand experiences of a specific resorts/liveaboards/operators at specific times of year. Both of these perspectives are valuable since no travel professional can have experienced all the possibilities themselves--we must rely on the feedback that our customers give us to help inform our recommendations to new customers. I absolutely agree that nobody can really help a potential visitor based on a 5-line post, but it's also true that most potential visitors have a rather vague idea of what they are looking for, and this lack of definition comes through in their initial posts. Therefore the replies end up being somewhat global.

As in everything in life, each of the users of the board makes use of it in a somewhat different way. Since you yourself have fairly clearly defined ideas of what you want, your own best information has come to you through private networking with other members. Most people, though, use the board as a starting place to begin to define their ideas, and as you note, they post pretty vague questions like "10 must-see dive spots in Bali?" which to them seem specific because they list a number and a place but in fact are rather undefined because we usually don't learn much from the question about the diver. General sorts of answers that pick up on one point in their OP, like my answer picked up on "I like liveaboards" that the OP of this thread expressed are all that can be expected.

Interestingly to me, while I picked up on the "I like liveaboards" part, you picked up on the "I don't like resorts" part. So our replies are bound to be different. To me, that is the beauty of a discussion board, and I'm absolutely in favor of seeing these varying perspectives in the thread. What often happens, though, is that a member who has visited once or twice and had a great experience thinks everybody absolutely must have the same experience they did or they will miss out, but they cannot seem to recognize two things: a) each visitor has different needs and expectations and b) there are numerous great experiences, not just that one that the replying member had. I don't spend a lot of time trying to guess what each vague OP really means, and I don't spend a lot of time writing a mini guidebook to the area listing every off the trodden path possibility. I just give a general reply and see where it leads to and how the thread develops. There's no rule that I can't reply again with more specific advice, if it seems appropriate. :victory:

 

[ocdiver1]

Scorpio, yes it was Lion/Wings all the way and it arrived at 5 or 5:30 pm. If I ever respond on here by making a recommendation, I look it from the perspective of advising a fellow traveler who may have limited time, money, may never make it back to the place they are considering traveling too, etc...the same concerns i would have...and try to gauge one's frame of reference from their post, as to whether they have prior experience in an area, had done certain type of research already, etc. In this case in was easy, it was going to be the poster's first trip to Indonesia, so that part was easy. I guess when i read some of the responses, I jumped in to give what I described as a "more upbeat" perspective. While no one came out and said "don't go," the overriding tone was one of difficulty, as if it was something that "could" be done but that people just didn't regularly do, with descriptions of leaving the country via Singapore, etc. etc. If I read that and don't know better, I have some serious second thoughts. The other perspective is, "Raja Ampat is a can't-miss destination, and if you're lucky enough to be in Indonesia, by all means go...now here's what you'd have to do to get there," and describe the travel as what it is, a reality of traveling in Indonesia. There's just a big difference there, and I didn't think there was the balance there to allow an impressionable poster who asked for advice to truly have the facts and make a decision. And Quero, you never said it was a trip you personally would make until much later...I think that's something that would have been valuable to throw out earlier. It's a different tact if advising a friend who one already knows or if there are many conversations with a person along with follow up questions, where one can ascertain more specifically where a person is coming from by making a general inquiry.