When should you flunk a student

[rje634]

When should someone be flunked?
When you see them during their open water dives and realize that they are going to end up being a statistic. I don't mean that in a harsh way but we've all seen divers that shouldn't be diving.
Not everyone can hit a baseball, sink a jump shot, get the ball over a net, and not everyone is cut out to dive. This is no ones fault, instructor or student. Sometimes you just can't do it...

 

[Diver0001]

When should someone be flunked?
When you see them during their open water dives and realize that they are going to end up being a statistic. I don't mean that in a harsh way but we've all seen divers that shouldn't be diving.
Not everyone can hit a baseball, sink a jump shot, get the ball over a net, and not everyone is cut out to dive. This is no ones fault, instructor or student. Sometimes you just can't do it...

Actually you can see this in the intake. The shop I work at uses "intro" dives to get people interested and to see how they are in the water. On more than one occasion we've sent people for swimming lessons instead of diving lessons.

R..

 

[mavjax]

In my mind asking for "mastery" of buoyancy control is an illusion at the OW level (by my personal standards). Asking for nice neutral swimming, proper and alert adjustments to the BCD and controlled ascents and descents is about all we can expect.

I agree and should not have used the work "mastery"...lord knows I have not "mastered" any of the skills. My point really was that they met the requirements. I agree with those in other threads who point out that these are MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS, and that to become a better diver you need to practice the skills not just jump in the water with a tank on your back and swim around.

 

[yknot]

Last year when I took my OW test, there were a couple kids (and I do mean kids...10-13 yrs old) who could not do a couple of the required tests...mainly the BC and the weight belt removal and replacement. Yet, the instructor passed these kids and they are now junior OW divers. At what point do you say enough is enough and fail these people. Yes they paid their money, but they are risking their lives and the lives of whoever they dive with. I'm sorry, but to me, this is not the way to do things. Don't get me wrong, the intructors were excellent and they and the divemasters went above and beyond the call to assist people. But when do you hand out the "F". Just curious as to your opinions.

scubafrog, do you know how these particular divers did with these skills during closed water training? Seems unlikely that they performed these skills adequately in a pool and suddenly went brain dead at a quarry or where ever open water checkout was done. Which causes me to ask the larger question of why an instructor scheduled open water certs for someone who wasn't ready? BTW, SSI allows for certs as young as 10.

 

[alemaozinho]

Last year when I took my OW test, there were a couple kids (and I do mean kids...10-13 yrs old) who could not do a couple of the required tests...mainly the BC and the weight belt removal and replacement. Yet, the instructor passed these kids and they are now junior OW divers. At what point do you say enough is enough and fail these people. Yes they paid their money, but they are risking their lives and the lives of whoever they dive with. I'm sorry, but to me, this is not the way to do things. Don't get me wrong, the intructors were excellent and they and the divemasters went above and beyond the call to assist people. But when do you hand out the "F". Just curious as to your opinions.

on my part;i wouldnt give up on a student (unless the student quits)persistance breaks resistance,i once exercised mask removal with a student for not less than three weekends (about eight hours straight)and her husband was *****ing because they already bought their complete outfit.Well,she,s a rescue diver now with more than 200 dives under her belt,wouldnt that be a shame if i,ve had given up on her?? back then??

 

[waterkitty]

I just got my OW certification and although I completed the required skills, I certainly have not "mastered" them. But that is what practice is for. I am comfortable in the water and I feel I can confidently perform the skills. I am going to go with experienced dive buddies first to work out the kinks in some of my techniques (especially buoyancy trimming) and once I feel they come naturally, I know I will be ready to add to my training.
IMHO, I think that the most important criterion in passing an OW class is displaying confidence and persistence in performing the skills. We had to show our comfort in the water with a swim test and my instructor made certain that each of us in the class were able to perform the skills we needed to learn. We also had some kids with us that did a great job as well. There were times that I was worried about my abilities, but after I had completed the skills several times (esp. mask clearing) I knew I could do it.
I am sorry for the somewhat OT ramble...but what I am trying to say in so many words is that if the student has the physical ability and the comfort in the water, then it is just a matter of patience and persistence on both the instructor's and student's part to perform the necessary skills. If the student poses a threat to him/herself or to his/her dive buddy, though, then the instructor needs to put safety first and determine if this person can handle an underwater emergency.

 

[lttleldydver]

This brings up a huge peeve of mine. But, before I get started, let me say that I'm very impressed by the attitudes of the parent divers on this thread. I too have a 13 year old. She really wants to become certified, but she is just not there yet in terms of independence and maturity. If she can't manage to get her homework done, how can she study for the class? We snorkel, etc... and will take it one step at a time.

But, as for the issues mentioned above, take it a step beyond gaining a ccard (wrongfully or rightfully)... what about the responsibility of the parents and DM? Twice now I've had dives nearly ruined because of a youngster on the dive. Ironically, both 12 years old. Once, in Cozumel, the DM and parents allowed the kid to go down to 90 feet. He was all over the place (I cringe to think of what he was doing to the coral). I was the lucky one that got to follow him through the pass thru, he nearly drowned me when he panicked because his bouncy was off. IMO, he should never have been allowed to go that deep. His parents? Ahead enjoying their dive.
Then, in Fiji the same circumstance. This time a 12 year old girl. She was pretty capable in the water, but often times we were 70 or more. Anyway, same thing. Zooming all over the place, killing both visability and coral. My gripe here is that she hadn't learned respect for us or the sea life and her parents did not think anything of it. She latched on to me and my dive buddy because we were younger and not her parents. When I got tired of being kicked in the face and missing all the cool stuff because she was scaring it away, I motioned for her to buddy up with her parents. Have you ever seen an underwater temper tantrum? Her parents didin't talk to us the rest of the day/evening. At least the DM apologized.

Sorry for the rant, but both of these kids obviously passed. In fact, they were decent divers. At some point, however, parents and DMs need to think about what you all so astutely talk about in this post. Are the conditions being dove appropriate for the age and maturity level of the diver?

 

[drbill]

I did my first diving at age 14 (without certification) and felt I was ready at the time. However to see kids as young as 8 (with one agency) being certified really concerns me.

As for passing a student- the skills must be acquired before a student can pass. Period. If they can't do the skills, they aren't ready to dive. I see too many divers who have either been poorly trained, have forgotten the skills because it was too long between dives or were passed to avoid a conflict. They shouldn't be diving until the skills are acquired.

Doc

 

[geraldp]

I can usually tell well before the end of the class who is not going to pass the course. Fact is, IME, most people who are truly inept come to the realization on their own and drop out. In rare instances I have had to counsel students to seek additional instruction time or take the class again. I have no problem with outright failing someone, and I don't train 10 year olds.
Neil

The experience I had in my OW class matches that... We had one guy who kept bolting to the surface of the pool. For two of our class sessions he kept himself in the shallow end of the pool. It wasn't like he didn't try... he practiced in the pool almost every day, but he clearly wasn't comfortable in the water. He finally was able to pass the skills in the pool, but decided himself he wasn't ready for the OW session.

As he had never even been snorkeling before I'm not sure why he wanted to do scuba in the first place, except he had just separated from his wife and wanted to do something "wild". He signed up for class and dropped $3000 on scuba equipment, then washed out. I suspect the instructor (and his employer, the LDS) was under a lot of pressure to pass this guy, as he had spent so much money.

Jerry

 

[Martini]

I have worked with a number of children between the ages of 10 and 13 during their OW classes in my role as a DM. I tend to draw classes with kids because I am "good with children". Many have turned out to be fantastic divers. Others we have failed for a many reasons. When the LDS I work with teaches children we try to put then in individual classes so they have more repetition and supervision. However, it boils down to the fact that kids develope at different rates and some are ready and some aren't.