When should you flunk a student

[Mako Mark]

Anyone who can't complete ALL of the skills should be flunked.

Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case these days. Pay for certifications.
.

no one should "flunk" a class. Diving instruction should be student based, not instructor based. If a student does not pass, who failed? the student failed to learn, or the instructor failed to teach effectively?

To me it's not a matter of pass or fail. It's a matter of "how long" it takes to learn it all.
R..

Bingo: It is a matter of more time or alternative approaches.

Recently in our operation, we revised our stance on the RSTC standards for teaching children. We had found that 10-12 year olds, while often able, were more often than not a little out of their depth with the conditions here in Cancun and Cozumel. In the interests of safety, we returned to the 12 year old limit that we had previously.

It amkes a few clients unhappy, but I would rather have an unhappy client than an injured or dead one.

 

[bradb21]

no one should "flunk" a class. Diving instruction should be student based, not instructor based. If a student does not pass, who failed? the student failed to learn, or the instructor failed to teach effectively?

Did you ever consider that not everybody is not meant to be a scuba diver?

How much time does an instructor spend with a student before he/she calls it quits.

- Why does every keep going back to how much more mature their son or daughter is than other adult divers??? That is not really the question here. The question was why were people certified (doesn't matter age) that could not complete ALL the skills???

 

[AevnsGrandpa]

It is interesting that this thread came up as over the last few weeks, as I have helped with an OW class that had a father and 10 year old son in it, and this last weekend was their cert OW dives and I was able to be there on one of the 2 days of diving.

I am not a DM or an instructor but a gopher so the others don't have to get out of the water to get things and help on the surface as needed.

This young man seemed to me to be a fairly bright boy and was able to do the tasks as required above and below the water. I did notice that he was a little on the short attention span and the instructor had to keep asking him to pay attention.

During the OW cert dive where they did the CESA, he was all over the platform. Standing on his head, swimming around, etc. At one point the DM had to grab his tank and pull him out of the way of a diver coming down.

I do not say any of this to belittle this young man only to show what I observed would be the problem as I see it in certifying those so young, immaturity. As much of what is learned and practiced in the OW class is basic to scuba diving and very important to get down pack, his immaturity to me inhibited him getting as familiar with the skills as he could have.

Also, I though the minimum age to receive your OW cert was 12. If it is 10 for a junior OW cert, why the difference in certification if he took the same class as everyone else, did all the same skills and dives? I would think that there would be a little difference in what the junior OW class would cover vs. the regular OW cert.

Just my 2 cents worth. I agree with everyone else as it depends on the individual and the instructor’s ability to convey all the info to a person that young.

Jeff

 

[GrierHPharmD]

Well said.

I have two children (14 and 11), and neither of them are certified. My 14 y/o son really wants to take the classes, but my wife and I have reservations re: maturity, so I've put it on hold for a while. We snorkel regularly, and both kids are excellent swimmers, much more comfortable in the water than me. My son has worked through the OW manual, and seems to know the material.

I think that, within the acceptable age ranges, you have to evaluate each child individually. Actually, the rule above - would I let my son dive alone with this person? - seems to be a pretty good acid test.

-Grier

 

[Diver0001]

....snip....

I totally agree that if ALL of the skills have not been mastered they should not pass. ....(emphasis added).....

I wondered how long it would be before someone used the M word. I'm developing a bit of an allergy for the M word.

How do we define "Mastery" of a skill?

Let's take buoyancy control for example: It's well defined. A student has to be able to hover for 1 min without flapping around. Orientation doesn't matter.

When I took OW I could hover for 1 min but it wasn't particularly pretty and it took all my concentration to do it. I could stay neutral as long as I was moving and (compared to now) I was "Mr. YoYo Man". In other words a "typical" OW diver. Was I a master at buoyancy control?

I can hover motionless for as long as I want now. Am I a master now?

I'm sure some divers can do better..... Are *they* masters?

Which expectation do we have when way say "he's mastered buoyancy control"? Or for that matter any skill.

If I compare a OW diver to divers I see around me who I believe have "mastered" buoyancy control then I think the OW course would have to include a minimum of 100 hours in in the water.

An extreme example of an OW course includes about 15-18. Typical is more like 7 - 9.

In my mind asking for "mastery" of buoyancy control is an illusion at the OW level (by my personal standards). Asking for nice neutral swimming, proper and alert adjustments to the BCD and controlled ascents and descents is about all we can expect.

"Mastery" of most skills comes later.

Ok, bring it on.

R..

 

[Mako Mark]

Also, I though the minimum age to receive your OW cert was 12. If it is 10 for a junior OW cert, why the difference in certification if he took the same class as everyone else, .

The RSTC (Recreational Scuba Training Council) used to have 12 as the minimum age for diver certificationsuntil a couple of years ago when they dropped it to 10.

Although the Junior course is the same as far as skills and academics go, the card is different as there are restrictions on depth and supervision.

A 10 year old may not dive deeper than 12 m or 40' and must dive under the direct supervision of a Parent, Guardian or dive instructor.

A 12 to 15 year old, may dive to a maximum 21 m or 70' and must dive under the supervision of a certifid diver of legal age.

 

[Mako Mark]

define "Mastery" ..

:rofl:

someone slap Diver0001 or send him to his room.... Please.

 

[neil]

no one should "flunk" a class. Diving instruction should be student based, not instructor based.

With all due respect Mark, that's meaningless PADI-speak, like "performance-based". People SHOULD, IMO, flunk class because:

-They aren't intelligent or diligent enough to learn the material.*
-They are physically inept (or too unfit) with little hope of improvement. *
- They have no desire or intention, for whatever reason, to perform to the standard required by the instructor or agency.
- Their attitude shows disregard for the importance of learning to dive safely.

*(not counting folks with genuine learning or physical disabilities)

Do you want to certify a diver who spent 6 months trying to pass the PADI OW exam? Or the 10 yr. old who is too small to be strong enough to climb a short ladder with an AL 50 on his back? Not me. My 2 cents and my opinion.

Neil

 

[paige_va]

Having just recent certified in OW, I have to say that I understand what Diver0001 is saying when he questions the meaning of the word "mastery." I can say for sure that there were points during OW that I was asking myself whether or not my instructor should or should not certify me, and even know, C-Card in my pocket, I am far from comfortable in the water. Would I let my child dive with me??? Absolutely NOT! Would I let my husband dive with me??? Probably, but I would want someone much more experienced along for the ride. My point is that I was able to complete all the skills required for certification, and a qualified PADI instructor signed on the dotted line, saying that I was ready to be certified. Have I mastered anything? The answer is a definitive no. Am I anxious to work towards mastery? Absolutely, and some day I hope to be abel to say that I would let my child dive with me.

 

[ChrisA]

Last year when I took my OW test, there were a couple kids (and I do mean kids...10-13 yrs old) who could not do a couple of the required tests...mainly the BC and the weight belt removal and replacement. Yet, the instructor passed these kids and they are now junior OW divers..

I know a girl 12 years old who is junior OW certified and a very good diver. But she tried taking the OW class when she was even younger and failed. The reason was the same as stated above she lacked the physical ability to take off her gear and put it back on while in the water. This is understandable here in the land of cold water as even young girls wear big weight belts and 7mm suits. Later she is bigger and can do it. Both her and her father had no problem with her failing..
They just said "she wasn't strong enough back then."

One other thing, the shop I use required that kids 10 to 12 take the OW class as a private session. As for the fixed fee policy, I think they will let you re-take the class as required. But asking around I hear that very few people fail OW.