When should a shop request your C-Card?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Proving that you are of age for alcohol or tobacco purchases is a matter of law, demanding a c-card at a dive shop is an entirely different matter. The idea that there is liability based solely on the transaction, the purchase of a regulator is self-important clap trap.

Agreed ... if there were legal precedent for that, automobile dealers would be getting sued every time someone gets into a car accident.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Phil_C]

I have opted for the other I'm afraid - first of all I am certified - and would not want to dive with or partner someone else who is not certified, as I think this is a committment to learn to do things right and demonstrate this by taking the test and course. Although I accept that certification actually proves nothing.

However - in the absence of any legislation which makes it illegal to dive without a C card, which as far as I know does not exist in any country, I do not see that it is right to restrict the right of shops to trade with whoever they want, or for people to excercise their freedom of choice.

It is slightly (but only slightly) different for dive boats, leaders and so on, I think it is good practice for them to insist on seeing that that their potential customers are qualified and capable of doing what they are asking to do so that the dive master can be confident they are not putting other customers at risk. But what is the position with an unqualified diver who can evidence that he/she has been diving for many years to a good standard and perfectly safely.

The dive centre I use has this situation - five divers who have been diving every day for abotu ten years working around a fish farm. No accidents or incidents, but equally not a qualification card between them. The divers are now going through the CMAS 1* course, but they are all way above that level of operation.

I have dived with them, and they are very competent and safe, and do it all instinctively, at least to my relatively inexperienced eye.

P

 

[Thalassamania]

One of the real problems, as we have seen in many threads, is that possession of a c-card and possession of the knowledge and skills to dive "safety" are not one and the same. Having to show a c-card, for any purpose, gives false credence to the idea that is trustworthy evidence of a real capability.

 

[mike_s]

Agreed ... if there were legal precedent for that, automobile dealers would be getting sued every time someone gets into a car accident.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yeah... but people seems to sue Scuba for accidents and also for small airplane accidents.


I've witnessed a few very minor scuba accidents, but only one that ended in a lawsuit. Woman freaked and bolted to the surface and broke the water like a Polaris missile coming out of the water. She busted her ear drums, had a little blood coming out and went to hospital on her own.

she sued the scuba instructor on it, even though she was the one that bolted for the surface.





Somewhat locally we had a guy who was drunk break into a small airport, break into the office where the plane keys were, take a set of keys, go get in a plane and take it off and quickly crashed it.

1.) he broke into an airport/office.
2.) stole a plane that wasn't his
3.) didn't know how to fly
4.) was drunk and shouldn't been driving,flying, etc.


Even though he was drunk and stole the plane, his family sued the airport, the owner of the plane, the airport operator, the last mechanic to work on the plane for "annual" certification, sued Cessna (maker of the plane), and the manufacturer of the seat in the plane because he hit the ground so hard with so much "G Force" that the seat tore loose from the plane and ejected him and the seat. (not that if he'd stayed in the plane he would have survived either).


Stuff like that is why the liability of small plane ownership is so high and causes it to cost 10 times as much as something should.

 

[Phil_C]

Yeah... but people seems to sue Scuba for accidents and also for small airplane accidents.


I've witnessed a few very minor scuba accidents, but only one that ended in a lawsuit. Woman freaked and bolted to the surface and broke the water like a Polaris missile coming out of the water. She busted her ear drums, had a little blood coming out and went to hospital on her own.

she sued the scuba instructor on it, even though she was the one that bolted for the surface.


Even though he was drunk and stole the plane, his family sued the airport, the owner of the plane, the airport operator, the last mechanic to work on the plane for "annual" certification, sued Cessna (maker of the plane), and the manufacturer of the seat in the plane because he hit the ground so hard with so much "G Force" that the seat tore loose from the plane and ejected him and the seat. (not that if he'd stayed in the plane he would have survived either).


Stuff like that is why the liability of small plane ownership is so high and causes it to cost 10 times as much as something should.

Couldn't agree more and this sort of thing makes me mad- I'm afraid I firmly believe if someone does something they know is ilegal and acts like a Muppet they should bear the costs and he blame alone - why should everyone else have to pay through higher insurance premiums and so on.

 

[lsorenson]

Couldn't agree more and this sort of thing makes me mad- I'm afraid I firmly believe if someone does something they know is ilegal and acts like a Muppet they should bear the costs and the blame alone - why should everyone else have to pay through higher insurance premiums and so on.

Your kidding... right??? Are you saying that I should be responsible for being irresponsible??? Not a court in this country would hold me or anyone else to such standards!!! Why on earth would I except responsibility when I might hit the jackpot???

The sad reality is this is what we have become in this country... as a kid; when we made mistakes, we were punished by one of several ways... the belt, the back of a hand, restriction, chewed on a bar of soap, or lots of extra chores...! For the past 20-25 years or more, if you slap, spank, or look at a kid wrong, your going to jail...!!! I remember looking a the whelps my dad left on my butt... I think I grew up fairly well and with a sense of respect. To this day, I still except responsibility for all of my actions and even some that are not but others will blame the sun for coming up!!! Some will point every which way to deflect blame and try to push it on to others... and I think the reasons why are due to never being held accountable for anything in the first place...

I remember my kid told me once... "Dad, if you hit me I can call the police to come and get you..." I said, "Son, you go ahead and call the police and then you should call the ambulance cause I am going to throw you through every wall in this house and get my moneys worth...!!!" Cops never came and all of the walls are still standing!

Drifted OT for a moment but "people" can be really dreadful... as you never really know just what they have in their hearts or minds...

Some folks just want to make their money a bit more easier than the rest of us do... and with this in mind, why would I risk all I have and become a DM... Cause there are still alot of good people out there who are looking to become divers!!! I was one not to long ago myself...!!!

Oh, and card them for air!!! IMHO, to me its not much different than carding someone heading into a bar...! I wonder what the courts have ruled on this... if anyone knows?

 

[Thalassamania]

It sounds like you except responsibility for visiting the sins of the father on the son. Beating a child has been shown to only accomplish two things:

1. it teaches them to lie to avoid future pain.
2. it almost guarantees that they will beat their children.

Me, I accept responsibility for raising my son ... and he's never been hit by an adult.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I card you for classes requiring a previous cert. and if you are diving on my boat. Releases require proof of cert.Why? Just last week, I got an email from a guy wanting to book for 6 people on my weekend boat. He told me that he was an experienced diver and the rest had little to no experience. Okay, I'll add an extra divemaster. I asked about equipment and was told they all needed totaly gear. Okay. I then said they needed to be there early to sign the releases and not to forget their cert cards. He then said he was the only one with a certification, that wouldn't be a problem, would it?Uhhhh, yeah. It would. He then proceeded to mention that I should not have a problem, because resorts do it all the time everywhere else in the world. I suggested he go to one of them.I don't need to see a card for anything else. If you are taking a course, or getting in my pool or boat, I want your card. Easy.

 

[ScubaSteve]

.......I said, "Son, you go ahead and call the police and then you should call the ambulance cause I am going to throw you through every wall in this house and get my moneys worth...!!!"......

Totally not the topic of any thread but OMG are you kidding me? Wow. Just wow.

 

[lsorenson]

It sounds like you except responsibility for visiting the sins of the father on the son. Beating a child has been shown to only accomplish two things:

1. it teaches them to lie to avoid future pain.
2. it almost guarantees that they will beat their children.

Me, I accept responsibility for raising my son ... and he's never been hit by an adult.

Totally not the topic of any thread but OMG are you kidding me? Wow. Just wow.

you guys are kill me....! Never once did I say I beat my kid... not one time but yet you make the assumption!!! You either don't have any kids or your kidding yourself... If you had kids, are you telling me you never smacked their hand when they were reaching for something such as grabbing candy or such at the store or maybe kept pulling on the dogs ears after you have repeatedly corrected them??? Never once gave them a crack on the bottom with your hand...? Never... ever???

Me, I remember doing both of those things when he was quite young... but I never slapped him, nor hit him with a closed fist, nor do I ever remember spanking him... but when I said something, he knew it... This boy learned to say "thank you", "please", opened doors, helped the elderly and those in need down stairs, and pretty much always with a smile... He was a honor student while a 4 sport athlete (except for that 4 month period when he found out about girls), tutored kids, took care of his chores, ironed his own shirts when he was old enough, helped with the dishes, and could out ski me down the mountain... as we did live in Lake Tahoe, Steve...

This thread is about ramifications in asking to see a card or not asking... Were all worried about protecting our self from law suites; whether its verifying Certification to see that at least sometime in their life they may have known how to dive safely, or, not to check as for some legal reason this protects you against foolish or dangerous behavior...! I carry insurance in case a kid on a skateboard falls in front of my house, cracks his head on the sidewalk and for some reason I become the responsible party through no fault of my own...

IMO, most law suits are brought about for easy money or not excepting responsibility... NOT ALL but a heck of a lot more than there should be... Hell, Doctors were leaving New Jersey because they could not afford malpractice insurance; at least this was the case some 5 years ago or so...

This thread is also about responsibility...! Some folks have it... some don't!!!

lee

PS One last thought on this... Just in case you didn't know; you don't necessary need to hit your kid, husband, or wife for any of the three to pick up the phone and say you did...!!!

Back to the statement I made to my kid when he was 16 and feeling his oats... Yea, I said it... Not so sure I could have thrown him through every wall but I would have given it an honest attempt... The meaning behind it was "Don't mess with me cause I am older, meaner, and I cheat...!" he knew what it meant... Just like when he would argue with his mom about staying out later than he should... I would hear her arguing with him so I would take the phone and say "get your butt home now!" No arguing... He may not have liked it (heck, I know he didn't like it) but he would be home in a matter of no time...

We were lucky with our kid... and its not like he didn't stub his toe cause he had a couple of moments but he/we got through and he has done pretty well for himself as a Pilot of 10 years in the Air Force and I could not be more proud...!