When is it okay to exceeding training limits?

[TSandM]

I do not recall anything in my divemaster class that said I could not guide someone below the limit of their certification, other than, as already stated, to stay within recreational limits and out of deco.

I WAS charged with leading safe dives. I think that allows a significant amount of wiggle room.

Be aware that guides in other countries may not be certified agency professionals at all . . . it depends on the facility, and especially on whether they do any classes or not. At the end of the day, it's up to you to decide what is safe for you to do -- and doing any dive about which you have qualms, simply because you have a friend with you who says, "Come on, it will be fine!" is foolish.

 

[RJP]

Yes, a thousand back posts on this, one of my favourite questions.

OW divers trained to dive "to a max of 60' in conditions you were trained"? Does that mean if the surf is a little rougher today you can't go? Very vague. No real rules, as someone mentioned.

Well, if we're going to parse the language, let's use the correct language...

The wording in OW materials is actually

"As a PADI Open Water Diver, you will be a certified entry-level diver able to rent dive gear, get air fills and dive anywhere in the world in better or similar conditions to those you've trained in."

So, assuming you trained in "some surf" it's reasonable to assume that surf that's "a little rougher today" would be considered "similar" to those in which you've trained.

Unless anyone thinks that their OW card is actually only good for dives conducted in, say "a freshwater quarry in NE Pennsylvania on a sunny day with a water temperature of 68F."

:d

 

[TMHeimer]

Well, if we're going to parse the language, let's use the correct language...

The wording in OW materials is actually

"As a PADI Open Water Diver, you will be a certified entry-level diver able to rent dive gear, get air fills and dive anywhere in the world in better or similar conditions to those you've trained in."

So, assuming you trained in "some surf" it's reasonable to assume that surf that's "a little rougher today" would be considered "similar" to those in which you've trained.

Unless anyone thinks that their OW card is actually only good for dives conducted in, say "a freshwater quarry in NE Pennsylvania on a sunny day with a water temperature of 68F."

:d

You're absolutely right. My quote was not at all exact. My surf example was an exaggeration to make a point--perhaps too much so. I think you could however find examples that would be questionable--such as current, possible downwellings and other stuff that could either be "similar" enough, or not so much so. Still feel it's pretty vague. But not as vague as how you "officially" extend the depth limit assuming you aspire to log 1,000 dives without getting AOW.

 

[boulderjohn]

There is an interesting thread going on currently on ScubaBoard that is directly tied in to the concept of knowing when it is OK to exceed your limits. I won't link to it because I don't want to open old wounds--ScubaBoard veterans will recognize the situation immediately. It definitely has to do with knowing the reasons for the limits, because the person being discussed posted something long after the incident reporting on the things he learned from the incident. Those were things he would have learned through training, things that would have kept him from exceeding those limits when he made that decision to dive, if only he had known them then.

He was a professional divemaster, pretty far up the food chain in terms of qualifications, but he and two other similarly qualified divers went beyond their certification levels for depth on a dive one day. In the current thread, people are trying to raise enough funds to buy him a service dog to help him through his days in a wheel chair. He is relatively lucky. One of his companions died.

 

[KevinNM]

The problem you can run into with the whole "extend your limits" is normalization of deviance. Where you end up slowly cranking up the risk level over time, but since you never get bitten, you don't fully grasp or acknowledge how far you have pushed past safe and sane into crazyland. Eventually the odds are you will have a very bad day.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

The problem you can run into with the whole "extend your limits" is normalization of deviance. Where you end up slowly cranking up the risk level over time, but since you never get bitten, you don't fully grasp or acknowledge how far you have pushed past safe and sane into crazyland. Eventually the odds are you will have a very bad day.

This is not necessarily obviated by training, however...it's more a risk inherent in gaining experience without sufficient reflection on what you've done/learned. For example, last I checked they don't issue certs for much past 100m, but plenty of us are planning and executing dives below that depth. You do so carefully and thoughtfully, or you likely won't be doing so very long.

 

[Steve_C]

Ok, a dose of reality here. We are talking about OW divers going below 60 ft and staying within recreational limits. I dive a lot out of Wilmington NC. There is a little stuff at 60 ft but most is deeper. The Hyde sits in 80 ft of water (85 if you go in the hole by the bow.). The deck is at 60. It's neighbor the Markham is a mile away and similar depths but on its side. Every year for literally 100s of divers this is their first ocean dive. I often pick up an instabuddy or two on this boat. In several cases it was their first dive post certification. I wind up lead as a buddy pair/trio. Once I make sure they are doing ok we explore the wreck. We will probably hit 70 ft on the first dive. If they do well on the first we may hit 80 on the second. Maybe not. Depends on conditions and their interests and air consumption.

After the Hyde next time out they may go dive the Gill. Now it is 90 ft to the bottom. I have seen pretty new divers out there.

They are doing what I did. I started out shallow. First dives were with more experienced divers. As I got more experience I did more challenging dives although to this day I like to stay above 105 ft for more bottom time.

Deep card. I went back and picked it up after over 200 dives when I started my DM. Did not learn anything new but enjoyed the dives. I had the AOW much earlier but that was from a quarry with a 65 ft dive for the deep part. But I knew my limits and gradually expanded them with experience.

 

[TMHeimer]

Ok, a dose of reality here. We are talking about OW divers going below 60 ft and staying within recreational limits. I dive a lot out of Wilmington NC. There is a little stuff at 60 ft but most is deeper. The Hyde sits in 80 ft of water (85 if you go in the hole by the bow.). The deck is at 60. It's neighbor the Markham is a mile away and similar depths but on its side. Every year for literally 100s of divers this is their first ocean dive. I often pick up an instabuddy or two on this boat. In several cases it was their first dive post certification. I wind up lead as a buddy pair/trio. Once I make sure they are doing ok we explore the wreck. We will probably hit 70 ft on the first dive. If they do well on the first we may hit 80 on the second. Maybe not. Depends on conditions and their interests and air consumption.

After the Hyde next time out they may go dive the Gill. Now it is 90 ft to the bottom. I have seen pretty new divers out there.

They are doing what I did. I started out shallow. First dives were with more experienced divers. As I got more experience I did more challenging dives although to this day I like to stay above 105 ft for more bottom time.

Deep card. I went back and picked it up after over 200 dives when I started my DM. Did not learn anything new but enjoyed the dives. I had the AOW much earlier but that was from a quarry with a 65 ft dive for the deep part. But I knew my limits and gradually expanded them with experience.

Yes, this is reality, and pretty much what I did when I started diving. Common sense and all that. I tend to split hairs about the PADI wording (or lack of it). It would be nice for all agencies to present the reality of what you say in their manuals.

 

[KeithG]

Some good input here, BUT I have seen lots of confusion over the "wording" of certification agency's "recommendations". Which I claim leads to the type of confusion the OP has and all sorts of bizarre behaviour. I claim we need to appeal to the language police to figure this out once and for all.

Many people focus on the phrase "training AND experience" as opposed to the phrase "training OR experience".

AND versus OR.

via google I can find PADI affiliated websites that use the OR term, some that use AND/OR, and none that use AND (not that I am biased). I could not find this phrase on PADI's current website as they seem to have removed the old style paragraph that claimed what you were allowed to do after you passed the course (other than to buy more courses...)

AND/OR example:
PADI Open Water Divers are qualified to:

• Dive with a buddy independent of supervision while applying the knowledge and skills they learn in this course, within the limits of their training and experience
• Obtain air fills, scuba equipment and other services.
• Plan, conduct and log open water no stop (no decompression) dives when properly equipped and when accompanied by a buddy in conditions with which they have training and/or experience.
• Continue their dive training with a specialty dive (Adventure Dive),
  in the PADI Adventures in Diving program or in PADI Specialty courses.

(this was from West Coast Diver Mallorca - PADI Diving courses on Majorca)

OR example
Open Water Diver certification is a full entry level certification you earn by successfully completing the entire Open Water Diver course. The PADI Open Water Diver certification qualifies you to:

Dive independently while applying the knowledge and skills you learn in this course, within the limits of your training and experience.

Procure air fills, scuba equipment and other services.

Plan, conduct and log open water no-decompression dives when equipped properly and accompanied by a buddy in conditions with which you have training or experience.

Continue your diver training with a specialty dive in the PADI Adventure Diver programs or PADI Specialty courses.
(this was from Midwest Scuba Center, Inc. - Indy's Oldest 5 STAR PADI Facility)

A casual inspection of my divebuddy's PADI manual reveals no such claims of what you are "allowed" to do after certification (most recent copyright 1984) in contrast to my PADI manual (copyright 1988) that clearly states:

Successfully earning the PADI Open Water Diver certification means that you are qualified to:
- Buy air fills, equipment and other services.
- Engage in recreational open-water diving without the direct or indirect supervision of an instructor.
- Plan, conduct and log open-water, no-decompression dives in conditions generally comparable to, or better than, those you were trained in. You must be properly equipped and accompanied by another certified diver.
- Participate in the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course and PADI Specialty .....

So I think it is safe to say that we are discussing a slowly moving target, full of weasel words, now largely influenced / controlled by lawyers from a "training" and not a "licensing" agency.

There are no scuba police, but there are insurance agencies...

 

[scubadada]

My experience is probably not atypical. Though I was previously certified and reasonably experienced, after a long hiatus, I was recertified with my 12 year old son on Grand Cayman in 1997. Our certification dives were between 40 and 60 feet. Our 1st post certification dive was to 95 feet on the North wall. Between 1997 and 2000 we dived Grand Cayman 3 times and I ended up with 12 dives less than or equal to 60 feet, 12 between 61 and 100 feet, and 11 greater than 100 feet, maximum of 110 feet. Granted, all these dives were in warm, clear water with an instructor. That was all about 900 dives ago now.

I was nitrox certified in 2002 but did not do my AOW and Deep Diver until 2004.