When is it okay to exceeding training limits?

[boulderjohn]

Thank you to everyone for the informative commentary. I haven't posted in this thread lately because I don't have anything to contribute. But, I am still reading it all!

That's why we have the threads. Reading is contributing. If people just posted with no one reading, this would be one wasteful exercise.

 

[stuartv]

I know. Since I'm the OP, I just didn't want anyone to think I bailed on the thread and was no longer "listening".

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I think it is safe to say that they are doing everything in their linguistic power to make you believe there is a rule when there is in fact no rule. That should suggest that they think following those non-rules is important.

But it tells us nothing about why they think following those non-rules is important. One theory would be that following their non-rules to the letter would lead a normally-progressing diver to take oodles of classes...which, lo and behold, they just happen to be in the business of offering. Importance of non-rule following explained.

 

[stuartv]

But it tells us nothing about why they think following those non-rules is important. One theory would be that following their non-rules to the letter would lead a normally-progressing diver to take oodles of classes...which, lo and behold, they just happen to be in the business of offering. Importance of non-rule following explained.

And you thought what I said about dive ops checking C cards just to cover their liability was cynical?! LMAO

 

[boulderjohn]

No matter what any agency does, they will be doing it for greedy, self serving reasons in someone's eyes.

Agency One says we are going to have longer and more complete courses that do not require someone to take more courses. They cost more, but the extra money is worth it. The cynic says that putting the additional learning into the course is actually the same as forcing the students to take and pay for the additional courses they could choose not to take with another agency. Pure greed.

Agency Two has a less expensive basic course and adds optional courses so the student can customize learning to get only what is needed when it is needed. The cynic says that breaking things down into all of those different courses is just a way to sell more courses and make more money. Pure greed.

Give me an agency policy for training--any agency--and I'll give you the cynical point of view of why it is just being done for the money. (I exclude mythical agencies in which none of the instructors are paid for their work.)

 

[stuartv]

I don't have any problem at all with people starting a business for the purpose of making money. Even if it is a Scuba training and certification agency. I HOPE SDI is making money... because so far I feel like I'm getting the same thing from them that I could get from PADI, and it's a lot cheaper, so I want SDI to continue to be around. Which they won't be if they aren't making money.

 

[tursiops]

I HOPE SDI is making money... because so far I feel like I'm getting the same thing from them that I could get from PADI

You have lauded the SDI Deep class....have you actually looked at its contents versus the PADI Deep class?

 

[Dr. Lecter]

No matter what any agency does, they will be doing it for greedy, self serving reasons in someone's eyes.

Agency One says we are going to have longer and more complete courses that do not require someone to take more courses. They cost more, but the extra money is worth it. The cynic says that putting the additional learning into the course is actually the same as forcing the students to take and pay for the additional courses they could choose not to take with another agency. Pure greed.

Agency Two has a less expensive basic course and adds optional courses so the student can customize learning to get only what is needed when it is needed. The cynic says that breaking things down into all of those different courses is just a way to sell more courses and make more money. Pure greed.

Give me an agency policy for training--any agency--and I'll give you the cynical point of view of why it is just being done for the money. (I exclude mythical agencies in which none of the instructors are paid for their work.)

One can entertain the cynical viewpoint without entirely accepting it as the answer to life, the universe, and everything I didn't say it was the only reason training agencies thought following non-rules important - but your prior comment implied to me that an agency's thinking that following non-rules is important should make doing so important to divers in and of itself. That's hardly the case, as their motivations are not necessarily aligned with the best interests of thinking divers.

 

[stuartv]

You have lauded the SDI Deep class....have you actually looked at its contents versus the PADI Deep class?

I don't recall lauding the SDI Deep class. I do recall expressing appreciation for my OW instructor, who told me that SDI Deep only requires 2 dives, but he requires 3, and that he takes all his students to a full 130' on the 3rd dive, so that they can have the maximum experience of narcosis, while with someone competent to get them out if they have trouble.

And, yes, I have looked at the PADI Deep course and see that it requires 4 dives. But, the 4th dive is not required to go especially deep, and I don't recall that there were any particular skills to perform during that dive, other than planning it and executing it.

For myself, I expect I will take the Deep course as soon as an opportunity presents itself (that doesn't require me to make a special trip from VA to FL), regardless of which agency is sanctioning it. If the instructor is certified by PADI and SDI, I'll probably request the SDI version, as I'd rather support SDI than PADI. Hopefully, the instructor will teach me the same stuff, regardless. I've already done 2 dives, to 85' and 89', and was very comfortable, had a good SAC, etc., so I'm not too worried about whether the formal course includes 2, 3, or 4 dives. I just want to make sure the instructor does take me to at least 120', for the reasons my current/previous instructor mentioned. That seems like a good idea to me. I want to eventually dive to see some wrecks and I'd rather my first trip to > 120' be with a solid instructor, rather than an Insta-Buddy.

 

[Hawkwood]

I don't have any problem at all with people starting a business for the purpose of making money. Even if it is a Scuba training and certification agency. I HOPE SDI is making money... because so far I feel like I'm getting the same thing from them that I could get from PADI, and it's a lot cheaper, so I want SDI to continue to be around. Which they won't be if they aren't making money.

I can't speak for the SDI courses, but just so that you are aware, and to be fair, PADI does not set the price for courses.

For the Deep Diver course PADI charges the Instructor only for the Deep Diver Manual and the cost for the registering the Certification after completion of the course. That is it.