when do you use a pony bottle?

[markfm]

I bought one at around 20 dives, just before taking my AOW. It's with me on any faintly deep dive, including on vacation.

Like anything else, use involves skills, so practice. What I like is to discuss with a buddy that I intend to use it on the ascent, a checkout, to verify time on the bottle. I still have plenty of gas in my main tank -- we're diving a normal plan -- this is just a test of using it. If I can get to the surface, with normal safety stop, still have gas left, then it is a workable solution for that depth.
The "gas left" is important -- that's the "aw heck" factor, meaning I want a bit of time for basic problem identification and to thumb the dive at depth.

I'm one of those who does use a back mount, pony inverted (valve down) on a QuickDraw release. Drop my right hand down and the valve is immediately in front of where the pony LP hose is -- no problem reaching it to turn on/off.

Personally, I don't see any likely event where I will need to remove my BC and keep it off (abandoned) for a free ascent. I have multiple cutting tools if for some bizarre reason I have to detach my main tank, and I do practice BCD remove/replace. No BCD = elevator ride, something that I don't intend to take.

Good post -- time to practice pony use (the season's just started up here).

 

[captain]

Capt., Please understand that I respect your experience and don't intend anything personal.

The fact is that single tank catastrophic failures are extremely rare but so are commercial airline crashes but I still would rather not be a passanger on "that particular plane" if I could have knowingly done something to avoid it or provide for a bail out with a parachute.

Doc from Catalina has had his tank's dip tube clog.

Others have had tank neck o rings blow in front of their very eyes. Their pick up buddies weren't attentive enough or calm enough to be of assistance.


I'm at a stage in my life where with retirement, I'm finally getting to travel and enjoy life more and the age where mortality is more "real" than it used to be, I want to insure I've done everything I can to provide for my preservation underwater.

I don't want to be kicking myself wishing I'd have had that pony bottle should I really need/want it, instead of allowing myself to have been talked out of it.

I'm by no means saying that a pony or any philosophy is right for all divers. But I hate to have a viable lifesaving tool completely dismissed by anyone, with one short sentence.
(xiSkiGuy's quote.)
Life support is important enough for consideration and discussion in my view ,by both sides of a philosophy especially when the original poster is seeking life support information regarding when it would be "right" to try or use a pony and several very experienced divers on the board have had or witnessed single tank failures.

If they know they're going to dive doubles soon then that's the better way to go, for redundancy, in my opinion as well as most board members here.

Wishing you continued safe and enjoyable diving.
Jim

Do you not fly if you can't have a parachute. When driving a car you could wear a helmet as an extra level of protection. My point is there are many ways to buy the farm in our daily lives and we are exsposed to risks that if we think about them we can find ways to lessen them. How many of us wear steel toe shoes, goggles and ear protection while mowing the lawn. An mower accident could have a large impact on your life, from losing an eye or part of a foot. We accept or more likely don't even consider them because they seem remote. Why do some view diving differently. I read about the failures but have never seen one. Who are having them and why are they happening. Are they more likely with rental equiptment, poorly maintained, type, etc.
I maintain my own equiptment including overhauls, I fill my own tanks, I simplify my equiptment as much as possible. Less things means less things to go wrong. My newest regulator is almost 30 years old but it is simple and reliable. I don't need the newest balanced this adjustable that with all the extra parts and failure points. My most reliable regulators are my 50 year old double hoses, no O rings, will not freeze, no pressurized hoses to blow, the upmost in simplicity. If something will get me it will probably be my own mistake and there is no way to eliminate that because I am human.

 

[jim T.]

I hear you Captain. Given the chance though, I'm saving myself for buying the farm while making love to a young(er) lady on top of a grand piano at a minumum age of 90.

Anything else will simply interfere with that plan. After all, what is life without a worthy goal?
Ask my wife. She'll attest to my frequent lecture (after working with head injuries patients) on how car drivers and passengers should wear helmets! (But I don't.)
Always did motorcycling though.

Goal #2: To die with tongue in cheek maybe?

I agree with you on every point and appreciate your experience. It was really only the one sentence dismissal thing that rubbed my neoprene the wrong way. It always does no matter who the poster might have been. Guess it's from years of teaching where no statement without support, sources, evidence was allowed to go unchallenged.

You can take an old teacher out of the classroom but not the classroom out of an old teacher, I guess.

Thanks for the dialogue and discusssion. I DO admire your level of self sufficiency and attention to gear.

Cheers, Jim

 

[xiSkiGuy]

It was really only the one sentence dismissal thing that rubbed my neoprene the wrong way. It always does no matter who the poster might have been. Guess it's from years of teaching where no statement without support, sources, evidence was allowed to go unchallenged.

Don't get your neoprene in a wad. The OP asked when people used a pony. I (rather sarcastically) said never.

Was it a constructive addition to the thread? Not really.

Did a few like minded folks get a laugh out of it? Yeah.

I suppose a more respectful answer would have been that I do not use one. I believe that way too many divers who use pony bottles "just in case" are short cutting proper dive planning. They haven't taken the time or the training to understand SAC rates or "rock bottom" pressures. They probably don't know if the size pony they have selected will give them enough gas to safely reach the surface when they are breathing in an elevated manner. Most pony bottle users would be better served with a H-valve or better yet (for true redundancy) doubles and some more practice/training.

Are there no good uses for a pony bottle? Well, the larger ones make great deco bottles. In all seriousness, if a person truly understands gas management and dive planning; and doubles or an H-valve are not practical options, then I suppose a pony might be better than nothing. Might. YMMV.

 

[Aquanautchuck]

When do I use my pony? Every dive. It is just a part of my gear and I feel naked without it. I carry it not because I worry I will run out of air on my main tank but because of error on my part. I carry it for a backup, if I have a problem with my main reg/tank. I have had to use it one time because of failure on my reg and I am very happy I had it.

It drives me up the wall when I hear or see divers use it to extend their dive. You plan the dive and dive the plan.

Personally I feel a 19 cu-ft is the min size and I do have a 30 sling for deeper dives. I guess what I am saying it is just a back up. Like JimT said, I am getting older and feeling more mortal.

I have thought of doubles and tried them but they are just not for me. This old back just has to many problems. Just my 2 cents worth. Great post and discussion.

Charles

 

[CompuDude]

I completely agree with the "plan your dive and dive your plan" philosophy.

That said, can one of you nay-sayers tell me what actual HARM a pony bottle does, aside from offering some peace of mind? Ok, you're carrying some extra gear, but that's an individual choice, isn't it? More gear to maintain and spend money on, but there's that individual choice again. Less streamlined... there's that individual choice again. (Note that I'm not talking about wreck penetrations or tech diving with special gear requirements here.)

I see that the nay-sayers prefer to have a solid plan, and understand gas management, etc. So what if the s**t hits the fan, and all your careful planning comes up against the one thing that you didn't plan for... the one thing you COULDN'T have planned for? Will having a pony hurt you? Could it possibly save your life? Perhaps it doesn't have enough air to make a fully safe ascent to the surface, but OTOH, perhaps it has just enough to make it to the nearest diver, who, having practicest perfect gas management, has sufficient gas to share air all the way up, including safety stops, etc. Does this mean that pony bottles are worthless?

In all likelihood they will never get used. One HOPES they would never get used. But should a bad situation occur, and you have one (or your idiot, paranoid poor-planning buddy hands you his, even though he shouldn't have one because they are a pointless crutch), what, are you going to say "no, pony bottles are crutches for those who don't know how to dive" and refuse to breathe off of it?

I can understand 100% the personal decision that you feel they are unnecessary for you. I do not understand at all the need to tell everyone else they shouldn't use one because they are stupid, dangerous, pointless, irrelevant, and/or [insert your choice here].

 

[jim T.]

xiSkiGuy,
Thanks for your additional response. My neoprene is more relaxed now!

Thanks for elaborating.

 

[chrisch]

..That said, can one of you nay-sayers tell me what actual HARM a pony bottle does, ....

There have been a number of occasions where the pony bottle (combined with diver error) have caused incedents. Like any item of kit if it exists it will have both positive and negative effects.

I don't own one but would use a stage as a bailout when A. Solo Diving and B. Ice Diving on a tether (not something I do as I ice dive with a buddy and a cave reel..)

I have no strong objection to ponys if the diver is able to use it and it contains enough gas for the planned depth. I do worry that for many users it is simply an opportunity to run out of gas twice. For deep diving use doubles and get properly trained.

Chris

 

[CompuDude]

There have been a number of occasions where the pony bottle (combined with diver error) have caused incedents. Like any item of kit if it exists it will have both positive and negative effects.

I don't own one but would use a stage as a bailout when A. Solo Diving and B. Ice Diving on a tether (not something I do as I ice dive with a buddy and a cave reel..)

I have no strong objection to ponys if the diver is able to use it and it contains enough gas for the planned depth. I do worry that for many users it is simply an opportunity to run out of gas twice. For deep diving use doubles and get properly trained.

Chris

I agree with you overall, but I still note that it was DIVER ERROR that caused the actual harm, not the pony bottle. I just can't see how it can do anything but help, as long as you plan your dive properly, understand gas management, and are not being stupid. If you run out of gas because you were being stupid, and your pony is not big enough to get you to the surface, you would still have a shorter OOA time (and over-fast ascent) than you would have had without the pony. I would argue that the DCS hit will be lessened due to the time you were able to spend ascending at a proper, safe rate, because you had the extra air to do so.

COUNTING on that air as part of your dive plan is just plain stupid. And I'm not talking about a pony being a cure for stupidity. I'm talking about it saving your ***** when murphy strikes.

I can see how a diver that says "gee, I'm almost out of air, but the fishies are so pretty, and I have that extra little air tank, surely that will let me stay down longer!" is a completely unsafe diver who has no business being underwater. But I'm talking about reasonable people who know how to plan their dive, carrying a little extra insurance. How is that hurts them? You say "no STRONG objection" (emphasis added)... why would you have ANY objection if the diver is well-trained, making informed, intelligent choices, and, as you said, "if the diver is able to use it and it contains enough gas for the planned depth"?

Again, I'm well aware that there are people out there who think they are invulnerable because they are carrying a pony, they don't have to worry about anything anymore. Those people deserve whatever they get, and I hope it doesn't affect anyone with them when things turn south. But making blanket statements to the effect that "pony's are bad because no one knows how to use them right" is rather insulting to those people who DO know how to use them right. They're not inherently bad. They just have the potential for abuse. Just like any other piece of dive gear.

 

[captain]

If we are talking about a pony as extra air, in my opinion why not carry more back gas and turn the dive sooner. Single 80 + 30 pony= 110. Use a bigger single or small doubles. Turn the dive where you would as if it was a single 80. Of course this requires planning and self discipline not to use that extra 30 cf watching the pretty fish. Easier to carry a pony.