What's with the UTD haters?

[Mikko Ilari Laakkonen]

Lastly, on z-system with catastrophic distribution block and/or supply hose leak, you can disconnect from both source tanks and either plug-in a pocket stored back-up QC6 2nd stage reg, or switch to optionally installed auxiliary 2nd stage regs stowed on the source tanks (which is my current set-up).

You actually carry FIVE (5) second stages with you on a normal two tank dive?? I'd

I am starting to believe that this UTD sidemount joke is a huge April fools prank that's off the calendar. No offense but this is funny and ridiculous, can't stop laughing.

Do you make this stuff up as you go?

Peace and safe diving!



- Mikko Laakkonen -

I love diving and teaching others to dive.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I want to point out is that there is a logic behind the Z, and a type of diver that it works well for. In particular, it suits:

- Divers who change configurations often, and want maximum flexibility and consistency between configurations.
- Divers who train/dive with UTD, and want the benefits of team consistency.

These are not the same requirements under which independent sidemount evolved. As a result, I am not surprised that the Z system doesn't make sense to independent sidemounters, especially those with highly optimized gear configurations for highly specialized uses.

If the Z doesn't make sense for the way you dive, I support your right to critique it as "not right for you" personally. That's not the same as blanket insults implying it's not right for anyone, which is what I've seen all too often in other threads.

We sidemounters need to keep our minds open, especially as the configuration grows in popularity far beyond the caves where it started.

Re:

... but it also produces those who can only repeat what their instructor told them, without really understanding the "why" behind it. We see those conversations taking place in here regularly, and while they are not representative of the intent of the agency, they are a product of them.

You can't really be a thinking diver and be dismissive, out of hand, of alternative approaches to problem-solving. That your solution works doesn't mean other solutions don't.


Throughout this entire conversation, for example, those who are promoting the merits of the Z-system dismiss ... without really considering the merits of the argument ... those who have attempted to explain the weaknesses.


GUE isn't really any different ... there are those like yourself who examine alternative approaches, even if you ultimately decide it's not for you ... and there are those who simply deride those approaches as somehow inferior. Both are a product of the same training ...


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

With all the trolls & noise finally subsided --SDS you've gracefully explained your motivation in diving the Z-system very well, and in doing so refuting the obtuse premise, criticism & hypocrisy of former GUE trained divers like Bob's post above as well. . .

There are obviously haters within the DIR/Hogarth regimen.

---------- Post added April 13th, 2014 at 03:03 PM ----------

You actually carry FIVE (5) second stages with you on a normal two tank dive?? I'd

I am starting to believe that this UTD sidemount joke is a huge April fools prank that's off the calendar. No offense but this is funny and ridiculous, can't stop laughing.

Do you make this stuff up as you go?

Peace and safe diving!



- Mikko Laakkonen -

I love diving and teaching others to dive.

Yep! Along with full stage/deco regs kit, conventional backmount doubles gear and a Scooter, my overweight baggage charge on United Airlines for Bikini Atoll/Truk Lagoon last year was $1200.

And on expedition, to seamlessly move between either backmount or sidemount kit in compliance with the Long Hose Paradigm, it's worth it. . .

 

[Mikko Ilari Laakkonen]

Wow, I am speechless. Happy bubbles!

Protip: carry your own lead and/or tanks to further increase the overweight costs to gain respect.

- Mikko Laakkonen -

I love diving and teaching others to dive.

 

[gearhound]

Hahaha!!! Can we get any more pretentious??? I think we have an answer to the OP's original question. And I still love it: -We're exactly the same as backmount Gue divers, yet we do everything different. And we can spend more! Can you scan another receipt to post?

I picked up a copy of the UTD Student and Diver Procedures, there is whole separate section for the dealing with failures starting on page 135. If everything is the same, why do you need a separate section with different procedures.

SanDiegoSidemount, I apologize. I respect your opinions and your views, but somebody else is sabotaging your progress.

 

[wedivebc]

And worst case in that already bad enough silt-out OOG Scenario, what then as an OOG victim if that cylinder you just switched to is near empty as well because of a latent free flow since your last reg switch? Another similar problem that was also discussed during training at UTD as well, in classical independent sidemount doubles (CISD) while on Scooter: an unnoticed "bleeding" 2nd stage latently free-flowing in the noise & turbulence of the Scooter's hydrodynamic wake.

In Z-system we alternate between tanks for balance & trim equalization by turning on & off our source cylinder valves as required --NOT by switching out regs one-for-one with both source tanks' valves normally open as in CISD. This eliminates the problem of the unnoticed latent free-flow.

and how does closing the unused independent cylinder differ other than allowing a completely isolated source of gas with far fewer failure points? Frankly I fail to see how QC6 connectors and plugging in second stages stored in your pocket is in any way similar to back mounted doubles which you guys claim to be the crux of your philosophy. How does a valve drill long hose donation even approximate a cycling of QCs and attaching pocket stowed regs? You focus on one or two similarities and conveniently ignore the multitude of differences.

---------- Post added April 13th, 2014 at 06:01 PM ----------

Re:
With all the trolls & noise finally subsided --SDS you've gracefully explained your motivation in diving the Z-system very well, and in doing so refuting the obtuse premise, criticism & hypocrisy of former GUE trained divers like Bob's post above as well. . .
. .

Ah shades of AG's debacle on another forum trying to tell us how to correctly dive rebreathers.

Anyone who does not agree with you is a troll and a hater.

 

[victorzamora]

and how does closing the unused independent cylinder differ other than allowing a completely isolated source of gas with far fewer failure points?

It's hilarious to me that, upon failure, they revert back to a setup nearly as failure-proof as independent sidemount. Their defense of the increased failure points is that they're "not likely to fail." They believe the slight flexibility given to them by a much more convoluted and expensive system is worth the dangers over a much simpler solution. I honestly don't get it.

The funniest part? They hide behind the DIR/Hogarthian name badge despite not following ANY of its base tenets.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Wow, I am speechless. Happy bubbles!


Protip: carry your own lead and/or tanks to further increase the overweight costs to gain respect.


- Mikko Laakkonen -


I love diving and teaching others to dive.

You first . . .show us how it"s done to get yourself some respect. . .

It's hilarious to me that, upon failure, they revert back to a setup nearly as failure-proof as independent sidemount. Their defense of the increased failure points is that they're "not likely to fail." They believe the slight flexibility given to them by a much more convoluted and expensive system is worth the dangers over a much simpler solution. I honestly don't get it.


The funniest part? They hide behind the DIR/Hogarthian name badge despite not following ANY of its base tenets.

So are these discussions of "standardization" in independent sidemount the alternative useful solution then Vic?


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...80587-question-about-sidemount-protocols.html


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/si...gear-configuration-practices-4-questions.html

and how does closing the unused independent cylinder differ other than allowing a completely isolated source of gas with far fewer failure points? Frankly I fail to see how QC6 connectors and plugging in second stages stored in your pocket is in any way similar to back mounted doubles which you guys claim to be the crux of your philosophy. How does a valve drill long hose donation even approximate a cycling of QCs and attaching pocket stowed regs? You focus on one or two similarities and conveniently ignore the multitude of differences.

Because the alternative of non-standardization is something again like this:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...80587-question-about-sidemount-protocols.html


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/si...gear-configuration-practices-4-questions.html

Ah shades of AG's debacle on another forum trying to tell us how to correctly dive rebreathers.

Anyone who does not agree with you is a troll and a hater.

That"s right Life Hater --argue for your limitations wedivebc, and sure enough they're all yours. . .

---------- Post added April 13th, 2014 at 07:32 PM ----------

Hahaha!!! Can we get any more pretentious??? I think we have an answer to the OP's original question. And I still love it: -We're exactly the same as backmount Gue divers, yet we do everything different. And we can spend more! Can you scan another receipt to post?

I picked up a copy of the UTD Student and Diver Procedures, there is whole separate section for the dealing with failures starting on page 135. If everything is the same, why do you need a separate section with different procedures.

SanDiegoSidemount, I apologize. I respect your opinions and your views, but somebody else is sabotaging your progress.

If you"ve gotta keep on harping on how much it costs, then you clearly can't afford it gearhound . . .

 

[gearhound]

I guess not Kev. But you're the one that keeps bringing up how much you spend, not anyone else.

Now I'm not a doctor, nor did I portray one on tv. And I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn. But I did play poker once, so I'll give you my read. A little off topic, but you seem to like to make things personal.

My guess is that you're someone who didn't have a lot of friends in high school. Maybe picked on a little bit, but definitely an outsider. So now that you're older, you're making up for that. Bragging about how much you can spend so that you can inflate your ego a bit. Heck, you can even pull out a dictionary and use some big words. Is it helping with the girls?

I've seen it happen with a couple of local divers. But you know what? It didn't matter how much gear they bought, it still didn't get them any more friends. That takes a personality.

How many times and on how many different threads do you have to bring up Truk and how much you spend? Is that your fall back position in every discussion?

And yes, I've had PMs from other UTD supporters that say they're embarrassed by you and your actions. Dude, calm down and be humble. I'm curious as to what the management at UTD have to say?

 

[arturojgt]

Hello to everyone. My name is Arthur, I'm from Argentina. A few years a go I decide to have my own sidemount gear.

I'm a newbie this beautiful sport, I have an open water certification in back mount single from a local agency.

Looking in the web for Padi OW videos I found some 5thD-X technical vídeos and my interest in technical diving born. This is the way that sidemount come to my attention. I has some talk with my dive master and he didn't know anything about side mount, he only know about back mount doubles (he is a former special force diver) and he told me that "this side mount system to my is like to have a Ferrari to go shopping the groceries). Soon I found Steve videos with his Razor then I found Andrew with his z-system.

I spent more than a year to make a decision about which one I was going to buy. My annual income with the devaluation of the Argentinian peso will be 10.500 u$s dollars, now you know the big economic effort (my wife don't need to know the real price of my gear) and the expectations that I have.

Steve offer (3 years a go I think) a the razor 2 harness and some spare parts only. I saw so many Steve videos and I realize that Steve must be a formidable cave diver, a real professional, he use his own design gear to penetrate in those cave...the design of his gear is proved. But I'm in Argentina and here in the 2010 even the technical diving instructor in Buenos Aires didn't tech side mount and encourage me to not buy that kind of gear. I feel that Steve only offer a very specialized and limited gear for cave diving only and not for recreational diving, I was looking for regulators configurations, hoses, tanks and I can't find anything related to this topics in the Steve videos or web site, only promotional videos about the Razor.

Looking further for side mount gear I cross my searching path with UTD. This guys offer me a lot of free information and advertising about z-sidemount system and the possibility to use it in recreational diving, they offer too some DVD, and printed manuals about diving and sidemount exercises and they sell ALL the gear too. I only bought the harness with the z-wing and not the z-manifold and hoses (I didn't like it and still don't because those extra failure point and the necessity of an spare 2nd stage regulator with a qc6 in a pocket, I barely can afford the harness with the wing).

The next year I can invest again in the regulators, hoses and spare parts. Again I bough from UTD the iso-fold and hoses, two pair of hog d1 and 2nd stages, the spg, etc. (again my wife must not know the value of this parts).

I find very usefull to use always the 2nd stage with the long hose as a primary regulator and the neck regulator as a second option

I don't find very easy to close and open the tank valves to equilibrate the buoyancy on the fly (I think now that a change in regulators is far more easy but in an stress OOG situation my buddy may be find the short hose in front of his mouth and not the long hose) but I always know that I'm using the long hose and it is ready for my buddy.

I like too the possibility in case of a lp hose or o-ring failure proximal to the qc6 connection I can unplug the tank and save the remaining air.

I only have a pair of regulator and al80s and the idea of having the long and short hose on the iso-fold and use it with one or two tank depending the situation and not worry to have tools in the bag to rearrange the hose from one regulator to another making the rare possibility of an o-ring come reality.

I don't like the very rare possibility of failure in one of the 8 static o-rings or hose connections at the ISO-fold in my back and I can't see this situation (my buddy is out of the equation, he didn't know anything ranging from bubbles coming out from the wrong place to CPR)

I know that UTD sell his gear using the philosophy that they are teaching but "I decide to buy from them" and they were very serious, patient and answer a lot of newbie questions before I bought from them, send me a free hard copy of copy of a DVD because my computer has "software problem" to reproduce online videos.

I have not regrets about my choice, about my gear, I use it with proud, care and safety.

Now I find my self between the wall and the sword with you guys. I'm reading every post that you make. I find some very hilarious and some with an strong point. This seems like MAC VS PC.

I'm sorry for my English, here is 02:42 am.



Enviado desde mi iPhone con Tapatalk

---------- Post added April 14th, 2014 at 09:24 AM ----------

Please, don't get me wrong. I know very well my limitations, the limitation in my training, the limitations of my knowledge in my gear, the limitation of my dive buddy (is good friend and we are at the beginning of the learning curve). I always use two AL80 even for shallow dives as a second source for my buddy and I.

I one opportunity I toke my full Z to my dive-master practice pool (a 10mt of deep cylinder pool) and with the view of my dive master I start using the Z. The way he look at me the first time that i put my gear on was funny (i have a great sense of humor and i learn to laugh of my self). I has no problem with the Z then and i still don't have any problem now.

I use it in Brasil in a trip with my dive center and i was the first in the water (i have my gear ready when we arrive to the dive site). in that particular opportunity we were nearly 30 diver on the boat...all the 28 (not my buddy, dive master and the boat crew, they already know my "awkward" kind of gear) give that strange look. The crew give me my tank when i was in the water, connect the qc6, clip it and the rest was awesome.

I remember in one opportunity after the purchasing of my gear, AG was in RIO training some divers who will become instructors in CCR (if i don't remember wrong), i become in touch with AG by email a he offer me that he will fly to my city located near 2000 km and give the proper training for free...yes free, my dive-master didn't like the idea of "sharing his facility" with this "unknown person", so that great opportunity to take training was lost.

The same peoples who encourage me 3 years a go to not buy this kind gear now are selling different brands of side-mount gear (no one here sell UTD gear) and offering different levels of training in Buenos Aires. Its a mater of time and sponsorship that this "step forward in the sales and the improve in training courses" change our judgement on what is good and wrong. I'm from Corrientes, an small city located near 1000 km away from Buenos Aires, and here even now no one in my dive school hear anything or know anything about "side-what?"

I like the idea of having some good people behind my "unknown and strange at that time" gear.

Like a wrote in the previous post...I see some strong points in this thread and i waiting for heavy ammunition fall from the sky at me.



Again, i'm sorry for my bad english.

 

[wedivebc]

That"s right Life Hater --argue for your limitations wedivebc, and sure enough they're all yours. . .
.

Someone on here asked in a PM for me to post the link to the "AG debacle" I referred to earlier. After reviewing that thread on a well known rebreather forum under the heading MX90 Danger I noticed a common theme.
Kev although I don't really understand what you said here I do sense that like AG, you are suggesting that those who don't agree with you are haters.