What's with the UTD haters?

[victorzamora]

To an OOG panicking victim . . .yes! Rob McGann -Tech Wreck Instructor & Dive-Ops Mgr at Truk Lagoon Dive Center- gives barely twice as long recognition & reaction time to his students in a drill, otherwise as the simulated OOG Victim, he will deliberately rip the Long Hose Primary from the students mouth.

Edd does the same thing. Heck, he did the same thing to me while he wasn't even my buddy. My buddy was pulling his reel in, I was watching his skills, and all of a sudden Edd flashes his light across my face about 5ft away while coming at me full speed. I had my short-hose in my mouth, I had the long hose clipped off. I had not expected him to be needing anything (he's an instructor, and not my buddy....I was supposed to be ignoring him). I still got the long hose off in time, and he was mauling me the whole time. He actually spit his reg out before starting, clearly trusting that I was going to get it.

I'm SO sick of this being the automatic response for why UTD is better. It's VERY specifically a gear solution to a skills problem. You should DEFINITELY be capable of donating in any time frame.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Edd does the same thing. Heck, he did the same thing to me while he wasn't even my buddy. My buddy was pulling his reel in, I was watching his skills, and all of a sudden Edd flashes his light across my face about 5ft away while coming at me full speed. I had my short-hose in my mouth, I had the long hose clipped off. I had not expected him to be needing anything (he's an instructor, and not my buddy....I was supposed to be ignoring him). I still got the long hose off in time, and he was mauling me the whole time. He actually spit his reg out before starting, clearly trusting that I was going to get it.

I'm SO sick of this being the automatic response for why UTD is better. It's VERY specifically a gear solution to a skills problem. You should DEFINITELY be capable of donating in any time frame.

Re:

How about a zero-viz out-of-gas scenario. If your muscle memory is from backgas doubles, you find your teammate, tap tap tap (signal) on the long-hose reg that's [always] in his mouth, and take it. He goes to his necklace, and you sort out your problems. I don't know how to resolve the situation where you go tap tap tap and the donor is breathing a necklace (upon a reg switch-over in classical sidemount technique). -Jeff_S (UTD Instructor)

Explain simply Vic within the classical non-standardized independent doubles sidemount paradigm how to donate just as quickly, and also separately about a basic Open Water OOG scenario on a Scooter too. . .

(Don't make yourself too sick Vic with another one of your rambling incoherent rants. . .)

 

[victorzamora]

How about a zero-viz out-of-gas scenario. If your muscle memory is from backgas doubles, you find your teammate, tap tap tap (signal) on the long-hose reg that's [always] in his mouth, and take it. He goes to his necklace, and you sort out your problems. I don't know how to resolve the situation where you go tap tap tap and the donor is breathing a necklace (upon a reg switch-over in classical sidemount). -Jeff_S (UTD Instructor)

No rant here, but it's safe to say that with training and muscle memory for sidemount....it can be done easily. In fact, I've done zero-vis OOA scenario, long-hose donation while breathing off the short hose. Much simpler than "Jeff_S" makes it out to be.

That whole quote is predicated upon the fact that you've got a ton of backmount doubles experience and no specific training or practice with a sidemount gear configuration.

 

[wedivebc]

Re:
Explain simply Vic within the classical non-standardized independent doubles sidemount paradigm how to donate just as quickly, and also separately about a basic Open Water OOG scenario on a Scooter too. . .

(Don't make yourself too sick Vic with another one of your rambling incoherent rants. . .)

Since you brought it up. With independent side mount there is no scenario that requires an immediate OOG drill since the diver simply changes out his own regs in the event of OOG. No need to plug in a QC or dig into his pocket to find a second stage to plug in just switch regs. Pretty simple eh?

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

Since you brought it up. With independent side mount there is no scenario that requires an immediate OOG drill since the diver simply changes out his own regs in the event of OOG. No need to plug in a QC or dig into his pocket to find a second stage to plug in just switch regs. Pretty simple eh?

Remember that UTD Z-sidemount includes a single tank configuration. In fact, this is the configuration used for all recreational sidemount at UTD. One of the benefits and consistencies of the Z is that S-drill remains the same regardless of tank configuration, single or doubles.

One thing it might be helpful to understand is that the Z is designed to be used within UTD's training system. This system promotes consistency across all levels of training, from initial OW certification up through advanced technical diving. So the very first S-drill you do in open water training, single tank sidemount, is exactly the same S-drill you will do later with doubles, stages, or other advanced gear. It's also the same S-drill you do in backmount singles or doubles. This is the same consistency that allows UTD to train backmount and sidemount divers together in most of their classes.

Whether this scalability and consistency matters to you in your own diving is another question. However, I think divers who have received UTD training appreciate it, and see its benefits to the individual diver and to the team.

 

[Razorista]

Remember that UTD Z-sidemount includes a single tank configuration. In fact, this is the configuration...

You can also setup a non-UTD single tank configuration.
Modifying the regulator between dives is trivial, just remove the longhose from the right 1st-stage and put it on the left (them the only) one - easily fast enough not to need quick connects.

In that setup everything would work exactly as you want it to - with one long and one shorthose directly on the tank.
I personally do not see any benefit at all with the UTD concept for single tank diving.

Whether this scalability and consistency matters to you in your own diving is another question.

The problem seems to be that no-one can see the 'scalability and consistency', the opposite seems to be obvious to most.
In fact it seems completely inconsistent with everything including common sense...

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

You can also setup a non-UTD single tank configuration.
Modifying the regulator between dives is trivial, just remove the longhose from the right 1st-stage and put it on the left (them the only) one - easily fast enough not to need quick connects.

In that setup everything would work exactly as you want it to - with one long and one shorthose directly on the tank.
I personally do not see any benefit at all with the UTD concept for single tank diving.

Right, but how about switching between configurations between dives on a single day? First off, a Z can do this with no wrenching required. I don't even have to leave the water to switch, so long as my tanks are hanging on the clip line. (I do this a lot in real life: I do a doubles dive with my wife, stay in the water and snorkel/Zuba with my younger son, then hook up a single to do a shallower dive with my older son.)

Second, I don't have to think, not even for a split second, about which configuration I am diving if a buddy needs gas. I donate from my mouth, period. Same if I'm diving backmount because I happened to book my trip aboard the Spree. ;-)

For me, this is benefit enough. I switch between configurations a lot, even in the same day, and the consistency works for me.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Since you brought it up. With independent side mount there is no scenario that requires an immediate OOG drill since the diver simply changes out his own regs in the event of OOG. No need to plug in a QC or dig into his pocket to find a second stage to plug in just switch regs. Pretty simple eh?

And worst case in that already bad enough silt-out OOG Scenario, what then as an OOG victim if that cylinder you just switched to is near empty as well because of a latent free flow since your last reg switch? Another similar problem that was also discussed during training at UTD as well, in classical independent sidemount doubles (CISD) while on Scooter: an unnoticed "bleeding" 2nd stage latently free-flowing in the noise & turbulence of the Scooter's hydrodynamic wake.

In Z-system we alternate between tanks for balance & trim equalization by turning on & off our source cylinder valves as required --NOT by switching out regs one-for-one with both source tanks' valves normally open as in CISD. This eliminates the problem of the unnoticed latent free-flow.

 

[Razorista]

@Kevrumbo
Sounds like a very expensive and failure prone solution to replace watching pressure gauges while scootering around...

@SanDiegoSidemount
Since you could do the same by just having one double configured pair and another with a regulator configured for single tank diving on the clip line, I do not see the benefit.
You would have to have them refilled after the doubles dive anyway, or have three cylinders hanging there in both configurations.

It really sounds like an attractive idea to be able to just pick up any number of your own cylinders and using any number of them seamlessly, though.
Expensive solution and it seems more affordable to just have lots of different regulators at half the cost, but elegant nonetheless.

I would not use it myself (and I do not mind a little 'wrenching' for an occasional singles dive).
I see what you mean however, so I will shut up now.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

I want to point out is that there is a logic behind the Z, and a type of diver that it works well for. In particular, it suits:

- Divers who change configurations often, and want maximum flexibility and consistency between configurations.
- Divers who train/dive with UTD, and want the benefits of team consistency.

These are not the same requirements under which independent sidemount evolved. As a result, I am not surprised that the Z system doesn't make sense to independent sidemounters, especially those with highly optimized gear configurations for highly specialized uses.

If the Z doesn't make sense for the way you dive, I support your right to critique it as "not right for you" personally. That's not the same as blanket insults implying it's not right for anyone, which is what I've seen all too often in other threads.

We sidemounters need to keep our minds open, especially as the configuration grows in popularity far beyond the caves where it started.