What's the point of a long hose?

[Bubbletrubble]

I have been in a similar same situation. The key difference is my buddy recognized he was LOG (he never went OOG) and we shared air on a leisurely return swim under the kelp with 600PSI still in his tank. He switched back to his own gas at the S/S and surfaced with 400PSI. Obviously we had some post dive discussion, but the long hose allowed up to manage the screw-up with minimum fuss and no need to make a choice of the less of 2 evils.

Had my buddy been at all panicy, I wouldn't have longed for a long hose.

The point is that with a short hose, we had to ascend right there, in the middle of the heavy kelp canopy. (As were surveying the kelp community, we were diving in the thick of it, where most divers would avoid for less dense areas.)

With a long hose we ascend there, as we did, or we could swim back to the boat, or we could ascend, sort stuff out and then re-descend and swim to the boat.

Long hose = options. Short hose = no options.

@fisheater: Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. There's a big difference between a LOA diver (~500-750psi) vs. an OOA diver, regardless of whether the donated hose is long or short. It's a poor decision to re-descend into an "overhead" environment with only one gas supply for two divers.

I quoted GrumpyOldGuy's post because the situation he describes is a much safer way to utilize an air-share to get past the kelp canopy. The long hose facilitates the air-share, and the fact that the LOA buddy still has some air in his tank gives him a margin of error should buddy separation occur.

Just because the long hose might make it easier to do an air-share (vs. a shorter donated hose)...doesn't necessarily mean that one should. In your example, you were forced to ascend in the midst of a heavy kelp canopy because your buddy ran out of air. At that point, the safer (albeit more inconvenient) course of action is the kelp crawl. Please understand that I am evaluating your situation once you have already surfaced.

In that situation I would surface and chat with the other diver, then devise a plan for returning to the boat, either by submerging or doing the kelp crawl. Part of that planning process would be how we would swim with the donor in the rear, or side by side if possible, and that the OOA diver needs to hang onto the long hose at all times. There definitely would be a dive debrief whether the OOA was caused by gear failure or stupidity.

@Peter_C: Assuming the kelp canopy is so thick between you and the boat that it presents an "overhead" environment, you would opt to do an air-share with the OOA diver vs. doing the kelp crawl? That's a strange choice based on risk assessment, in my opinion. You seem to be in agreement with fisheater. Perhaps I'm just more risk-averse than the next guy.

 

[fisheater]

I understand. But as I had a short hose at the time, I couldn't donate while he was LOA and swim out.

My main point is that a long hose gives you options that you simply don't have otherwise.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I understand. But as I had a short Bose at the time, I couldn't donate while his was LOA and swim out.

My main point is that a long hose gives you options that you simply don't have otherwise.

@fisheater: I think we'd both agree that a long hose gives a diver and his buddy more options in terms of air-sharing and that the advantages of a 5 or 7-foot long hose outweigh the disadvantages.

I just thought choosing to re-descend into an "overhead" environment with 1 gas supply for 2 divers would be kind of a curious decision given the alternative (kelp crawl at surface).

 

[Gombessa]

I just thought choosing to re-descend into an "overhead" environment with 1 gas supply for 2 divers would be kind of a curious decision given the alternative (kelp crawl at surface).

I would probably have to think long and hard about that particular option as well. It would probably come down to where we were and who my buddy was at the time.

 

[g1138]

If your buddy is truly OOA and is panicking or really on the verge, a direct ascent may be the best thing even if it's under a kelp canopy, it's probably a judgment call depending on the specific circumstances. But if everyone is calm, a short swim of 30-60 seconds is often all you'll need to get to a clearing in the kelp cover that makes surface logistics SOOO much easier and less stressful on whole.

On a related note, during our dive last weekend,we ran what I'll essentially call an extended drill involving a long (~15 minute) air-share swim under the kelp; made much easier using a long hose. I could even shoot a little video of it while sharing: long hose air share swim in kelp

someone was holding their breath
Couldn't resist. Glad you got your camera to come back to life

 

[boulderjohn]

First of all, I wonder where it as ever "proven" that an OOA diver will take just take the primary. In the only cases I know of, the OOA diver went directly for the alternate. In another thread on this topic, a poster reported having seen a study that says OOA divers go for whatever they have been trained to go for. I have not seen any study myself.

Next, when I was a regular recreational diver and read threads like this, my reaction was that if I ever got into tech diving, I would go with the long hose, but I saw no reason to change from the normal recreational setup. When I did start tech training, I did indeed learn the whole long hose setup, and that's what I had for my doubles. I kept my singles gear the same as it had been.

Then I read a story about someone who drowned when her buddy's alternate had come out of its holder and gotten stuck behind him. She couldn't find it, panicked, etc. That was when I switched my singles gear--that alternate bungied around the neck isn't going anywhere.

The point of the long hose is that the divers can ascend as individuals, within a 'generous' proximity to each other and without direct contact ('death grip'). Under those circumstances, the divers suffer less stress and are able to better manage their buoyancy on ascent.

When sharing air from a conventional AAS, with a 'death grip', the divers have to closely coordinate their buoyancy. It is easy for one diver to become negative, whilst the other compensates with excessive buoyancy. That works only up until they happen to become separated (losing the 'death grip').

The PADI style 'Roman Handshake' is particularly poor for this. It relies on both divers sacrificing the use of one hand for the entire duration of the ascent... and having to manage their buoyancy with the other hand. If any other problem occurs (i.e. flooded mask - likely when in such close proximity) then they either have to abandon their buoyancy control, or their 'death grip' or both... to deal with that problem.

That all makes perfect sense Andy =]
I haven't seen the PADI 'Roman Handshake', but I can imagine it's not very helpful.

It doesn't matter whether it is the PADI handshake (which I don't recommend in my PADI classes) or gripping the BCD strap. In either case a hand is no longer available, as Andy describes. The primary purpose of gripping each other in an OOA situation is not to control panic. As Bob points out, there really usually isn't a lot of panic once the alternate has been obtained. The primary purpose is to make sure there is something more than the OOA diver's dentures holding the two together as they do that awkward, clumsy, close-quarters ascent.

It is much, much better to get some separation. With a long hose, the OOA diver gets a good grip on the long hose to maintain non-dentured contact.

 

[Peter_C]

@Peter_C: Assuming the kelp canopy is so thick between you and the boat that it presents an "overhead" environment, you would opt to do an air-share with the OOA diver vs. doing the kelp crawl? That's a strange choice based on risk assessment, in my opinion. You seem to be in agreement with fisheater. Perhaps I'm just more risk-averse than the next guy.

Since when is kelp an overhead environment? I have never seen kelp so thick I couldn't find a way to stick my head out of the water. Have you?

People free dive in the kelp here all the time with few issues. Happens to be where the abalone are most often found. I have done so without any issues. Have you free dove in a kelp field? Just push it aside and surface.

If you are traveling at 15' under water with kelp overhead you will move fairly quickly through the kelp field until it is clear to ascend. At 15' of depth I doubt anyone couldn't make it to the surface with no air in their lungs, since it is only a few seconds away. Have you ever seen a kelp canopy that you couldn't create an opening? Maybe in a movie? I would venture to say you could claw your way up the kelp pulling it down and you to the surface fairly easily, no matter how thick it is. Then again maybe SoCal has thicker kelp than NorCal?

In that situation I would surface and chat with the other diver, then devise a plan for returning to the boat, either by submerging or doing the kelp crawl.

 

[laguna230diver]

... bunnies?

 

[Gombessa]

... bunnies?

I can't tell if you're addressing me or g1138.

Diving is serious business:

 

[g1138]

I can't tell if you're addressing me or g1138.

It doesn't matter whether it is the PADI handshake (which I don't recommend in my PADI classes) or gripping the BCD strap. In either case a hand is no longer available, as Andy describes. The primary purpose of gripping each other in an OOA situation is not to control panic. As Bob points out, there really usually isn't a lot of panic once the alternate has been obtained. The primary purpose is to make sure there is something more than the OOA diver's dentures holding the two together as they do that awkward, clumsy, close-quarters ascent.

It is much, much better to get some separation. With a long hose, the OOA diver gets a good grip on the long hose to maintain non-dentured contact.

UC Santa Cruz teaches you to lock your arms at the elbows (do-si-do). This allows you to have both hands free for your gauges and inflator hose. If you need a free hand you can let go of one and adjust as needed.
The only problem I see with this technique is that the donor HAS to be on the left side of their buddy.


With a long hose share air you have a near independent ascent for both divers involved.
Lets assume Murphy's Law takes hold and Mr. OOA has terrible buoyancy controls.
You now have a "line" attached to an person who's either sinking below you or rocketing above you.
If the person grabs a hold of the long hose to keep the reg in their mouth, you're practically stuck with them until you can get to them and do something.

The same can be said about a short hose but I feel that if your right there you can at least put some input into your buddy's inflator.