What would you do: Molested at 100' by an OOA Diver

[beanojones]

Who are these people that are diving with no SPG or J-valve? What boat or shop allows it? What instructor or guide would get in the water with someone so unprepared? Heck, you don't even hear about people doing this nowadays over on the vintage forum.

Not that this has anything to do with anything posted thus far in this thread.

What has been posted in this thread is this:
1. Divers should dive so as to prevent having to do things like CESAs from 100 ft.
- Divers should dive with buddies.
- Divers should dive with SPGs, and buddies, and use them.
- Divers should be doing some kind of gas management.

2. Divers should help other divers in line with their abilities, which means
- Divers should approach from the rear
- Divers should be able to free themselves from someone they are helping to protect themselves

However an instructor/DM/Guide is not just a diver, nor should they think of themselves as such.

What is completely different is the fact that there are lots of instructors who regularly dive with divers whose safety they are (like it or not) responsible for. An instructor/DM/Guide who doubts their ability to help someone underwater without having to resort to attacking the person in need should probably think of themselves as not a dive professional. Which is just fine.

Except when the thing under consideration used to be a basic diver skill albeit back in the day, it is absolutely mind bending that there are instructors who not only cannot do it, and have never tried it, but also cannot imagine there are those who can.

Now onto the question of who dives without SPGs or J-Valves, which again has nothing to do with anything so far in this thread, other than tangentially, in that people strated talking about the good old days before "those damn kids ruined diving for everyone". I neither advocate, nor recommend anyone ever dive without an SPG. It's a relic of how diving used to be done before people figured out how to dive. It's stupid, for almost all divers, and not really smart even for elite few.

That said:
In Hawaii plenty of people dive with no SPG (and no octo, and no inflator hose), and no J-Valve. They are neither diving with a guide nor a shop; the only thing a shop has to do with it is filling tanks. Because there is no big deal to it if someone is used to it, and it is much cheaper to outfit a bunch of tanks to be left underwater with attached first stages and second stages than a bunch of tanks each with a first, second, octo, SPG, and inflator hose. Those plastic backpacks mentioned? Not at all uncommon. Nowadays it is the scubapro style cam bands and not the big hose clamp looking tank clamp but it is still the plastic backpack.

My point is that an instructor is supposed to have skills well past a divers. I did not think it was strange that I did multiple CESAs from 100 feet for my DM course, because I knew that I would be doing this for a living and the idea of not being as capable as some divers despite being a dive professional struck me as being odd.

And this whole topic came out of someone who wanted to develop more confidence in deep diving,
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/456963-more-emergency-training.html
And this person was looking for a class where he would be harassed underwater. My personal take on most things is that jiriki is always better than tariki, and so I suggested an easy jiriki means (practice CESAs from 100 feet) to develop underwater confidence when diving deeper, because any tariki means (like taking a class where one is hassled) only continues the mindset of looking to others to get things done for oneself.

 

[BDSC]

What is completely different is the fact that there are lots of instructors who regularly dive with divers whose safety they are (like it or not) responsible for.

Sadly, there are probably too many divers who actually feel this way. I always thought I was responsible for my own safety.

 

[beanojones]

The malfunctions that stop your air supply instantly are very rare, and even then, one SHOULD have a buddy to hand will enough gas to end the dive.

I said this in the "Instructors Arguing with Other Instructors Forum" when this came up, and I will repeat it here because it bears repeating:

Many overbalanced first stages give absolutely zero warning until the final breath. They do not gradually get harder, if anything they get easier, and then they ... shut ... down ... completely, mid-breath. This point has been brought up repeatedly by tech divers many of whom prefer using unbalanced simple piston first stage designs on their deco regs because the gradually increasing difficulty in breathing gives some warning about the air left, unlike many overbalanced first stages. And some tech divers just don't put gauges on some deco tanks because what's the point? The time for gas management is well gone by the time someone is on 100 o2. (I would search for and link a number of posts by DA Aquamaster about this here, if I were not so lazy, and unsure of his wording. I did not bookmark the posts because I already knew the info myself from personal experience. I use gauges because I now use swivel first stages most of which these days are overbalanced, but I also use SP mk2 type first stages.)

As you know, I am hardly someone looking with fondness to the good old days for diver education. I think where we are is a good place, and where we used to be was not as good. BUT instructors who position themselves as professionals who claim knowledge about the topic have to know this stuff by doing it, and not reading it in a book. They have to run out of air with a number of different reg sets to see if the reg sets give any warning, before they makes statements about whether air can shut off without warning. They have to do CESAs on empty tanks to see if they actual get an extra breath. (Closing a valve to check these things is a completely different thing. I know, because I have actually tried both to see.)

We, as instructors, have to check these things out ourselves. Otherwise, we are just repeating information we heard somewhere. And in the case of saying sudden air shut off does not happen, incorrect information. Of course checking the gauge would solve the problem, but Hawaii seems to make some people forget that.

On the other hand, divers should never be doing any of this stuff, because it is potentially hazardous, and that is my job, and it is something they do for fun, not for work. I am a full-time dive instructor, living in a warm climate. I have the opportunity to check all this out, all the time, so I do.

 

[DCBC]

...I always thought I was responsible for my own safety.

It's a mixed message. Instructors certify divers with a card that says that they are qualified to dive alone unsupervised. Many can't. The Instructor says to dive with a Buddy, whom at the time of OW certification, doesn't necessarily know the first thing about underwater rescue. DMs and Instructors "Guide" i.e. babysit many divers who have only marginal ability to look after themselves. Sure there are lots of competent divers, but there are far too many incompetent ones.

Anyone can be taken by surprise. I don't see this happening more often than once. That's where I found a problem with the OP; but I appreciated his honesty. If it happened to me once, I'd be using a necklace (as I tend to do). Fool me once...

 

[danvolker]

{snip}
We, as instructors, have to check these things out ourselves. Otherwise, we are just repeating information we heard somewhere. And in the case of saying sudden air shut off does not happen, incorrect information. Of course checking the gauge would solve the problem, but Hawaii seems to make some people forget that.

On the other hand, divers should never be doing any of this stuff, because it is potentially hazardous, and that is my job, and it is something they do for fun, not for work. I am a full-time dive instructor, living in a warm climate. I have the opportunity to check all this out, all the time, so I do.

I agree with most of this post, except for the part about "divers should never......"
I go along with present level Basic OW Divers....but what is ridiculously referred to as Advanced OW Divers is where things should change--prior to this, Peak control Buoyancy and many other skills should have been taught and MASTERED.... MASTERED. At that point, when you actually become an Advanced Open Water Diver, you should be nearly as competent as most instructors are in the water today, but with no formal training in how to teach diving to others.
Instead, PADI and NAUI are selling "badges" to "cub scouts", that say they are now SEALS and ready for anything.
AOW is a huge lie, and we should fix it.
Once fixed, and Advanced Diver SHOULD be able to do a 100 foot CESA.

While fixing this, the median skill level coming out of OW classes should get only a Learners Permit card, and the few that really passed and really are open water divers can get the real OW1 card.

And if we had not been living with so much revisionism, and self-congratulatory justification for the way things are, everyone would have been pushing for this a decade ago!


And now that I think of it, this brings up the Guy Harrisson post of a week ago, where he explained how he was EXTORTED into taking an AOW class in order to do some relatively easy dives...baby dives for he and his wife...What gets ridiculous, is that his normal dives in Jupiter and Palm Beach are far more advanced than the dives required to complete an AOW class, and worse still, Guy and his wife are both more competent on 100 foot dives in strong currents, at night , or anything else going on, than probably 60 % of the Dive Instructors in the US. They dive with excellent divers, they have been mentored by people with great skills, and they have practiced these skills to perfection. They don't ever silt ( unlike half of all Dive Instructors), and they have peripheral awareness and buoyancy and trim much like GUE Fundies divers.....Yet, this nonsense class is being forced on them, due to the utter lunacy of the modular approach.

A nonsense class, that certifies "never-evers" on a routine basis. In other words, the class will guarantee nothing in skill ( while experience and testimony of Dive Captains or DM's they have dived with might).

 

[beanojones]

People that deliberately run themselves OOA are morons.

Instructors who share opinions about OOA situation without being in many of them are talking out the wrong end of the body. And on the subject of OOA, that's probably not the way to be talking.

Not saying you, in particular, are doing so, but I am saying that every instructor talks a bunch about OOA in every OW class, and the utter lack of first hand knowledge about it by most instructors means that a bunch of them must be talking out the wrong end of the body. At best they are just doing trust-me teaching second-hand, at worst they are actually passing along wrong knowledge, because they are counting on the expertise of some person they have never met, that they have no way of verifying.

Not been bent; have worked as an inside tender in a chamber. Have seen an O2 Hit by another tender. Have passed O2 tox test to 2.8ATM (220 feet/EAN37). Have been narked; have also done deep air dives to 200 feet with no narcosis. Thus I can, and do, talk about all of the above topics with first hand knowledge*. And I consider all of those topics of considerably less importance than running OOA.

* maybe I should get bent as well?

---------- Post added June 13th, 2013 at 03:05 PM ----------

Why should diver's that are not carrying redundant gas be diving deeper than they can safely reach the surface independently? A more realistic approach to the hazard of OOA emergency is warranted.

Robert Maier Solo Diving: "one should not dive deeper solo than twice the depth they can free dive from" always struck me as a decent rule of thumb.

 

[elmer fudd]

Now onto the question of who dives without SPGs or J-Valves, which again has nothing to do with anything so far in this thread, other than tangentially, in that people strated talking about the good old days before "those damn kids ruined diving for everyone". I neither advocate, nor recommend anyone ever dive without an SPG. It's a relic of how diving used to be done before people figured out how to dive. It's stupid, for almost all divers, and not really smart even for elite few.

That said:
In Hawaii plenty of people dive with no SPG (and no octo, and no inflator hose), and no J-Valve. They are neither diving with a guide nor a shop; the only thing a shop has to do with it is filling tanks. Because there is no big deal to it if someone is used to it, and it is much cheaper to outfit a bunch of tanks to be left underwater with attached first stages and second stages than a bunch of tanks each with a first, second, octo, SPG, and inflator hose. Those plastic backpacks mentioned? Not at all uncommon. Nowadays it is the scubapro style cam bands and not the big hose clamp looking tank clamp but it is still the plastic backpack.

I've done many dives without an SPG. I prefer an SPG, but I like to dive vintage gear and old double hoses often don't have the space for a banjo adaptor. With a J-valve and within certain depths and conditions it's not particularly hazardous. Without a J-valve and at a depth of 100' it means you have a death wish.

I don't think being an instructor means you have been tasked with saving every damn fool who chooses to strap on a tank, (only your students, buddies or customers), but if you take it that way, wouldn't a pony be more practical? Sure, we all owe it to our fellow man to make a reasonable effort to aid them when they need help, but a reasonable effort doesn't mean over the top heroics. If someone's irresponsibility is putting my life into serious danger, I'm going to save myself first. I've got family that depends on me and my responsibility to them comes way before my responsibility to save some knucklehead who seems intent on killing both of us.

 

[beanojones]

I don't think being an instructor means you have been tasked with saving every damn fool who chooses to strap on a tank, (only your students, buddies or customers), but if you take it that way, wouldn't a pony be more practical? Sure, we all owe it to our fellow man to make a reasonable effort to aid them when they need help, but a reasonable effort doesn't mean over the top heroics. If someone's irresponsibility is putting my life into serious danger, I'm going to save myself first. I've got family that depends on me and my responsibility to them comes way before my responsibility to save some knucklehead who seems intent on killing both of us.

See that is kind of the difference isn't it? I am a dive professional, not because PADI says DMs are professionals, but because this is what I pay rent with.

For you, it is important that you protect your ability to make a living, and that living has nothing to do with diving.

For me it is important that I protect my ability to make a living, and that means protecting divers from themselves, even if they are not directly under my care, since diving is what I do for a living. (And protecting other new instructors, and other neew dive operators from themselves as well. The number of people/companies who are still doing/will still be doing this ten years later is few. Most of them are people and companies I have worked with. I learn from them, they learn from me, I tend to associate with companies that are not stupid.)

Like it or not, when a diver dies, entire companies dry up and blow away, even those with no direct connection to the diver. Dive sites stop getting dived, boat captains hang up their anchors, boats get dry-docked. instructors get expelled, foreign investors move to safer pursuits like bungie jumping. Tour agents who have other markets send their customers to those other markets, whether they be different locations or different activities.

I worry about liability as an individual, but I worry about economic reality in a broader sense, and I protect the companies and instructors I work with from themselves to protect my selfish economic interests

In terms of a pony bottle, that does not help when the diver has a death grip on the guide. People simply are not processing what fear of dying does to a person's strength. It's not a matter of basic body size, adrenaline makes people capable of superhuman feats of strength. And since I know I can make it to the surface, and I know that's where they want to go, and where I want to go if I don't have a reg, it's no big deal. I know I can do, so up we go. It may not be easy, but it sure as heck is simple.

 

[tomfcrist]

Beano,
I'm going to post this and walk away from this thread.
Your can do attitude is commendable, however it's reckless. Not reckless to other divers, but to yourself. I just pray I don't see your name in the A&I forum. If I do, tell your family not to take offense when my 4 word post says " I saw that coming".

 

[aprivetera]

Since joining this board a few weeks ago, I have honestly been amazed at the quantity of material/skills/knowledge that never makes it into training courses or is taken as a given. I mean, yes, scuba equipment has come a looooooooooooooooooooooong way from the stuff in the 70s and you don't have to worry about certain problems happening anymore.

And so the industry training has been adjusted. From what I understand, we have not seen an alarming spike in deaths, because alot of the initial challenges to the sport have been addressed through equipment and research. Progress.

However, it does seem to worry me that many of these things are not clearly explained to divers. Atleast not explicitly. Maybe it's just me or how I learn or how I was taught, but there is (for me) an alarming amount of material that was not brought to my attention during my non-professional courses that I feel would have made me a much better diver. It's only really when I asked myself do I feel comfortable labeling myself as a professional without atleast understanding and practicing these things to a minimum.

"Every diver is responsable for their own safety" does not solicit the same kind of psychological response that I feel should be taught to new divers.