What training is "required"?

[boulderjohn]

The first thing you have to do is define the word "required," and to do that, you have to determine who is doing the requiring. The agencies have no power whatsoever to require anything anywhere. Requirements are created by local dive operators and local governments. They look at situations and decided what makes sense for them in terms of requirements. The agencies provide courses and give certifications to those who pass them. If an operator or government decides that one of those certifications makes sense as a requirement, then it becomes one.

As an example, you asked about DPVs. Nope, in ALMOST no case is a certification required to use one. If, on the other hand, you go to Ginnie Springs in Florida with the intent of taking a DPV into a cave, you had better not only have a DPV certification, it had better say that it is DPV for an overhead environment.

Most cave site owners require an appropriate level of cave certification for diving. Many operators require AOW for the more challenging sites they visit. A dive operator running a dive to a site requiring decompression will require an appropriate technical diving certification. Many operators require a solo diving certification for diving without a buddy. In each case, the reason is the fear that they will be sued for allowing a diver to undertake a more dangerous dive without proper qualification.

In contrast, there is no such threat for someone carrying a camera without a photography certification.

Did the guy that broke the Guinness Book of World records have the "max depth of any human" specialty course?

Actually, I'm sure he did, and so did the guy who just died trying to break it. I think a discussion of that is worthwhile

The name of the course that for most agencies ends the sequence of deep diving includes the word "trimix." With TDI, for example, the name of the course is Advanced Trimix, and you are certified to 330 feet. For PADI, the course is just Trimix, and the depth is a bit shallower. All such agencies have to deal with the fact that there is no course teaching deeper diving. PADI's course spends quite a bit of time discussing what that means. When the diver wishes to go deeper, the course says, the diver must use good common sense to extend knowledge and skill a little at a time as personal limits are expanded. The diver who just died did not do that, and went too far too fast past those limits, doing a dive for which he was woefully unprepared.

That same warning is true of the entire dive experience. You have to use good judgment in extending your limits. Sometimes it will make sense for you to take a course and get the certification card that come with it. Sometimes it will not. You just have to make good decisions.

As for me, as a cave diver, trimix diver, and trimix instructor, I have accumulated a pile of certification cards along the way. I also have a lot of certification cards indicating that I can teach a very wide array of specialty classes, including several that I created myself. On the other hand, I don't have enough actual specialties to qualify as a Master Scuba Diver. I made other decisions about how to get my training.

 

[KevinNM]

My LDS included the DS course with the suit. I just had to buy the traning pack with the manual and dvd. It was useful but was mostly stuff you could figure out. The emergency dump by popping the neck and wrist seal were useful, hopefully will never need those techniques but it was good to have done it in a class.

an underwater photography specialty taught by someone is is a skilled underwater photographer would probably be useful to the average diver who has decided to take a camera underwater, but it would be silly to require that.

Overhead, whether virtual or physical, really changes the risks and I can't see people at risk allowing divers to do that on their property, and it is foolish to try to do those without effective instruction.

 

[Storker]

The first thing you have to do is define the word "required,"

This.

I took my OW to learn enough to start diving. I got a DS cert as well, since we certified in dry suits. Nice to have if I ever need to rent a DS.
I took my AOW to be allowed to dive my style when abroad, on a vacation.
I took my nitrox cert to be allowed to fill nitrox. In retrospect, I could have read up on the subject myself, but I didn't know what I didn't know.
I'm planning to take Rescue and Fundies to advance my diving skills, not because I believe it'll increase my availability of the diving I want to do.
I had the option to take a freediving course (CMAS), but I declined because after learning about the curriculum I didn't believe it would give me anything new.
I'm definitely not going to take PADI specialties like Deep (I get too narked at depth and have set my personal limit at 30m/100'), Photo (I've used a camera since my OW card was issued, and I got enough from reading some good books) o any other. Personally, I don't see the need. YMMV.

What you want from "advanced" dive certs is up to yourself.

 

[kafkaland]

Much of it has already been said. Let me just add my experience with the specialties. It's probably no surprise, but it all came down to the match between my needs and what the instructor was able to deliver in the framework of the course. Dry suit was very helpful for me. I got OW certified in Costa Rica, but then wanted to go on to AOW and diving in the Great Lakes. A competent drysuit instructor certainly helps me getting the hang of it quickly, and also demystified the process of buying one quite a bit. The sidemount course, on the other hand, was a complete waste. I was struggling with getting the tanks trimmed out on my own after the course, and when I started with cavern, my instructor basically had me start all over again on sidemount, as much of what I had learned was not appropriate for overhead environments.

The he one I'm still trying to figure out is the deep specialty. I haven't taken it, and yet I'm quite comfortable in the 100-130 ft. range, especially when I dive my sidemount rig with all the redundancy that it affords. But when I was looking for Great Lakes dive boats last summer, I came across one that explicitly required the deep specialty to dive anything deeper than 100ft. Is this perhaps becoming more common with all the liability fears out there?

 

[TMHeimer]

boulderjohn explains it best. I can only speak for our shop in Canada and several I've patronized in the U.S., but as he says, it depends on how you define "required". I know that unless they know you, you will be required to have a C card for Air and nitrox one for nitrox fills--and I would assume the appropriate tech. card(s) for something like Trimix. Then it comes down to legal requirements by countries/areas or by LDS'/Dive Ops. And much of that probably has to do with their insurance and possible lawsuits. The most obvious example is the charter requiring AOW cert. if deeper than 60'. There is no requirement from anyone else for you to go to 100', with the exception of some countries (France is one I think). For a shop to rent you advanced/tech. equipment that may be another time they require a cert. of some kind.

If OTOH you are defining "required" as what you need for yourself to do the dive safely, that boils down to logic. There are ways to extend your depth without taking a Deep course. You can read stuff, increase depth gradually, go a few times with a dive pro or experienced guy. Or you can just take the course (and then do that other stuff). But requirements like these have nothing to do with legalities (except in some places) or dive shops. In fact, I would guess there are no laws against a shop filling a non-certified diver's tanks--I believe it was done all the time decades ago. I vaguely recall my older brother getting fills at a gas station in the early 60s. Doubt that happens anywhere today.

 

[SillyQuestions]

I do a type of diving that if I mention, they'll delete my post.

I dive to nigh on 300', on a scooter, exploring, on a side mount CCR wearing a drysuit.

I have a PADI OW, AOW and rescue. That's it.

It's just been a gradual progression


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[Littlerayray]

Are you following your no deco limits and are you using mixes I agree with taking a course on mixed gases it is very technical and dangerous doing what you have done is dangerous and foolhardy I don't recommend anyone going to 300' feet on mixed gases without proper training

 

[SillyQuestions]

I blend my own mixed gases. Both inside my CCR and with my Haskell pump.

Courses are not the only way to learn.

Neither are they the best way for everyone.

Myself? I learn best from independent research and bouncing ideas and thoughts off more experienced divers.


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---------- Post added December 23rd, 2015 at 12:57 AM ----------

Oh, I built my CCR myself too, with no plans. Which PADI speciality ticket do I need for that?


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[Father]

Some very good discussion and thoughts here. Thanks.

So yeah, I guess required should be defined and I'm guessing it's at least partly base on the particular place you're diving and how ridig they are in their requirements.

If you dive a hardcore PADI resort I suppose they might use every opportunity they can to "require" you to have the cert/specialty for the dive you want to do.

Beyond your word and your dive logs how else can you prove that you have not only done that type of diving before but are also comfortable and proficient in it besides havin the C card? I have plenty of logged dives >100'. I personally don't see the difference between 100' and 130'. It doesn't effect me physically or psychologically and I understand the limits at those depths with the mix I dive. So why would I need a C card, and more importantly have to spend the money, just to satisfy a made up requirement?

For overhead (wrecks/"caverns") what I had in mind when I said "seeing daylight/exit" was more along the lines of swim-thrus and wrecks like the Kittiwake in Grand Cayman.

 

[TMHeimer]

The PADI depths from OW to Deep cert. are recommendations, not any sort of requirement by PADI. You would need the matching cert. card if someone you pay to dive with requires it--or if you're in France, etc. Of course you can't prove you've been to 130' by showing a log book (which someone could fake, for whatever curious reason). The card shows someone that you've been to that depth (or at least below 100', depending on your instructor) at least once, and that may satisfy that person's insurance/lawsuit concerns. This sort of legal concern has nothing to do with how comfortable you are at 130' or how many times you've done that. If you are competent and comfortable that deep by means other than a course, you have satisfied the requirement you have put on yourself to be safe (as possible) down there.