What really is an "Advanced Open Water" diver?

[Edward3c]

You guys are all right saying PADI cannot stop me from going beyond my certification of 30m as an AOW certified diver. What can stop me is the wording on my DAN insurance (as attached). Even though the DAN specs say up to 50m is covered, in the FAQ's and I'm sure in the fine print as well, it says quite plainly that I must have 'held appropriate certification for the dive' at the time, which as a PADI AOW is a 30m limit. If I have any dramas at 31m and they check my computer logs, you can bet your balls they will say sorry pal, your on your own. Not a risk I am willing to take at this stage in my dive experience.

I am sure there are plenty of maverick hero's out there that like to push the limits and prove how much they like to ignore the rules, but I am not one of them! Rules are in place for a reason.

I find the arguments for diving beyond training limits amusing. There have been a number of instances where insurers have walked away because the individual was diving deeper than the training limit for their certification. One example was a diver, of 25 years, PADI OW certified, who had a problem below the depth limit. His family had to sell the family home to pay his Egyptian medical bills.

Doesn’t matter what the Internet experts say.

 

[lowwall]

I find the arguments for diving beyond training limits amusing. There have been a number of instances where insurers have walked away because the individual was diving deeper than the training limit for their certification. One example was a diver, of 25 years, PADI OW certified, who had a problem below the depth limit. His family had to sell the family home to pay his Egyptian medical bills.

Doesn’t matter what the Internet experts say.

Training limit or certification limit? They are not the same thing. Who wrote the policy and what did it say? The question here was about a DAN policy that specified certification limits.

 

[Searcaigh]

Who wrote the policy and what did it say?

You can be damn sure that in every insurance policy somewhere in the small print there will be a get out clause written by the insurer's lawyers.

 

[Lorenzoid]

My thinking is that, unless your insurance policy specifically states otherwise, diving beyond the limits at which your c-card says you were trained just means you may someday need to prove what you were doing was reasonable by virtue of you having acquired the necessary experience (and maybe additional informal training) to have expanded your limits. In other words, maybe diving within the limits at which your c-card says you were trained just creates a presumption that you were diving reasonably, and if you push those limits then the burden shifts to you to prove it. I don't know what law would be applied--and I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction around the world--so this is all just speculation.

 

[Belzelbub]

My thinking is that, unless your insurance policy specifically states otherwise, diving beyond the limits at which your c-card says you were trained just means you may someday need to prove what you were doing was reasonable by virtue of you having acquired the necessary experience (and maybe additional informal training) to have expanded your limits. In other words, maybe diving within the limits at which your c-card says you were trained just creates a presumption that you were diving reasonably, and if you push those limits then the burden shifts to you to prove it. I don't know what law would be applied--and I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction around the world--so this is all just speculation.

None of my C-cards state anything about limits. They just reference the course I took. One of my OW certs actually had at least one checkout dive to a depth beyond 80’. What limit was I certified to in this case? Since it’s OW, some would argue that the limit is 60’. However, I actually went deeper on a checkout dive, so is my limit 80’?

To avoid any confusion, I also have a Deep cert. Training dive max for this was 106 ffw.

The agencies have definitely stressed that the RECOMMENDED limit for OW is 60’, which is leading to some confusion. When I was first certified, 130’ was the recreational limit, and still is today.

What’s most important is confirming what Dive Ops or Insurance will accept as qualification for particular dives.

 

[boulderjohn]

My DAN insurance has no depth limits.

The only time I saw a policy with depth limits, the limits of the policy were clear--130 feet. No guesswork involved.

Your personal limits as determined by your training and experience are up to your best judgment, unless your best judgment butts up against the stated policies of insurance and dive operations.

 

[solo gato]

Its amazing to read the posts in this thread, many great insights. Training has I believe become more focused since I was certed and is better in that regard and in its limited resort diver focus ( my opinion) . I had a different experience based mainly on the older process my instructor used. To have a cert one might consider "advanced" one must set specific training points that have to be met, whatever those are, ( I'd say most people will never agree on those points or criteria ) One , as pilots do, must keep all of those criteria in pretty constant practice to stay "Advanced", which IMHO would occur with about .02 % of the time. Ive had TONS of various types of dive training, but seldom in the last 15 years have I exceed 60 fsw, most of my dives are actually in less than 40 fsw. As a matter of fact looking at my logs in the last two years I have right at 198 hours all less than 30 fsw most in the 15' range.

 

[Wibble]

The AOW course itself is a monetary solution to a business problem, instead of a training solution to a skills problem.

Very perceptive. Might steal that quote for future 'discussions'.

 

[Wibble]

BSAC and CMAS also consider Rec limit to be 50m (160ft) since that’s the PPO2 @ 1.4 on 21%. The 40m/140’ is a US invention

To be slightly picky; 40m/130' is about the maximum you can dive without exceeding the non-decompression limits (NDL). 50m/165' will always be a deco dive by the time you've sunk to 50m. BSAC allows for 15mins deco (or did). CMAS probably does too (needs checking).

Also (not mentioned) is narcosis. 40m/130' it is quite pronounced. 50m/165' and you're off your face.

Thus 40m/130' is a better limit for recreational divers than 50m -- which is more likely to be a hangover from BSAC's + CMAS's ancient past.

 

[Lorenzoid]

None of my C-cards state anything about limits. They just reference the course I took. One of my OW certs actually had at least one checkout dive to a depth beyond 80’. What limit was I certified to in this case? Since it’s OW, some would argue that the limit is 60’. However, I actually went deeper on a checkout dive, so is my limit 80’?
. . .

Most c-cards don't list anything about training depths (some do--I have an IANTD card that lists a depth) but as others pointed out above, all of the agencies set a depth limit that applies to the training dives for which the particular c-card was awarded. You're not "certified to" that limit; rather, you were trained under the condition of that limit.