What makes trust me dives bad, and what makes them worse?

[marymac]

There are some well said points and I agree with a lot of them..
but..I said I hang on every word the dm says - not that I am entrusting my life to him/her. The ocean is a big place. They are my tour guide. They dive that region nearly everyday. They (usually) know the topography, all the cool critter hiding places, and (the ones I have had experience with) seem to care about the dive group. Some of which get sidetracked and may need a reminder of how deep they are or where they are wandering off to. Isn't that why we pay for our vacation dives? If I didn't want to trust the dm I should just load up my equipment and venture into the wild with my buddy and hope for the best? Kudos to those who do. Shore diving is enough excitement for me without my tour guide. And I am old enough to have been taught responsibility for self comes first and foremost. I am in control of my gauges and I know where the surface is and pray I get there appropriately.
I have read a lot of the incidents and near misses and it seems there are a lot of experienced divers who have had stuff go wrong well as the newbies. The water is an amazing place and scary for me since I didn't grow up being a fish. I just think a lil trust in our fellow divers can go a long way.

 

[TSandM]

Some of which get sidetracked and may need a reminder of how deep they are or where they are wandering off to.

I hope I am reading you wrong. Do you really think that an appropriate role for a dive guide is to make sure divers don't forget their depth or pay attention to their navigation? It seems to me that watching one's depth and time is one of the most basic things that a diver should have learned to do, and expect to do (along with watching one's own gas supply). If you are giving over responsibility for those things to a guide, in my opinion, you are not diving, you are a monitored float.

 

[haumana ronin]

It depends on your relationship with the instructor concerned. A lesson is a lesson - you learn something. For it not to be a trust me dive, you should know what you need to know before the dive.

OK, that makes me feel a little better about turning my night trust-me into a night lesson. I will be sure to ask about the skills too.

There isn't a bright line between "appropriate" dives and "trust me" dives -- it's a continuum. Being a little way along the continuum is a pretty familiar place for new divers. After all, the first time you got in open water, wasn't that a serious "trust me" dive? I'll bet you didn't plan the dive, or know the site, or choose your buddy. And if you were like me, you paddled furiously to follow the "guide" because he represented life, warmth and safety

I think I was a little less worried than most. I had already figured out I needed a bailout plan by reading this forum. I lurked here for a while before getting my c-card and for months after:lurk3: and coincidentally enough, the dive leader WAS my instructor. I was probably overly naive about what it really took though. My first dive was only a couple miles down the shore from my OW3 dive and the next dive was in the same place as my OW4 dive.

If you are doing everything within YOUR capability to participate in planning and executing the dive, but are leaning a little bit on someone with more experience, either in diving in general or in that environment, I think that's a "stretching" dive, and those are good things.

BTW, I asked much the same question a while back

I saw that before posting this. I didn't just add to it because:

1. It wasnt specific enough in listing out the factors. I like lists
2. That thread didn't really come to a hard conclusion/definition.
3. Since that thread, more viewpoints have come up.
4. I didn't wan't to make a zombie thread.
5. I didn't wan't to expose a Mod as having once been a mere mortal.:zap:

Most every new diver here locally has to be responsible for themselves from the beginning since there is no one else to do it for them. We generally get some dives in with someone more experienced every now and then but even that isn't/shouldn't be a trust me dive.

If you only do a few dives a year on vacation that can be a limiting factor so at least realize that it is. If someone only drove a car once a year while on vacation they should realize that their driving skills are pretty basic and should be sure to keep their driving environment pretty basic. Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to drive in Manhattan while on vacation

So how does one perform self evaluation? What things are more critical than the others? I put together the list to find out.

BTW, even experienced drivers shouldnt drive in Manhattan on vacation!

That's not what we're saying at all. We're telling you that you should understand the risks, and be prepared to deal with the consequences, before embarking on a dive. If that concept wasn't part of your Basic OW training, it should have been.

The dive industry made a decision some 15 years or so ago to break what used to be the Basic OW class into three components ... what are now known as OW, AOW, and Rescue. I believe anyone who dives ... whether a vacation diver or someone who dives locally on a regular basis ... should take those three classes. Beyond that, additional education is only something you need to take to achieve your personal goals.

These two paragraphs are a little contradictory. So no occasional resort diving until Rescue diver? (not an issue for me since I plan on not being occasional and Rescue is in the plan...) That hardly seems reasonable. And lets say one's training was lacking, what does one do? Or even, how does one realize it?

I am a trust-me diver. I am a vacation diver.

Those are not equivalent terms ... there are many vacation divers out there who are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves.

Not equivalent, but definitely a major overlap, which I say based on nothing more than personal observation of not that many dives.

There's a whole series of "What if" threads in this forum that are doing just that. Hopefully you're reading them. ScubaBoard is a wonderful place to gain encouragement and pointers. Some of us have spent years encouraging new divers and helping them learn what they never heard or thought of during a class.

... and while you're focused on breathing, what do you suppose you might be missing? Spend enough time in the Accidents and Incidents forum and you'll come to realize that the majority of accidents are the result of people going on dives they were not qualified for, and getting themselves so focused on the basics ... like breathing and controlling their buoyancy ... that they didn't have the mental capacity to pay attention to what they were doing. They were, in effect, trusting someone else to watch their air ... or their buddy ... and hadn't the ability to deal with the problem that occurred because they weren't paying attention.

Nobody's telling you not to dive ... we're encouraging you to learn enough to keep diving well into your golden years ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

This site is at least as valuable as an OW manual, if not more.

There are some well said points and I agree with a lot of them..
but..I said I hang on every word the dm says - not that I am entrusting my life to him/her. The ocean is a big place. They are my tour guide. They dive that region nearly everyday. They (usually) know the topography, all the cool critter hiding places, and (the ones I have had experience with) seem to care about the dive group.

**CUT and PASTE**

Isn't that why we pay for our vacation dives? If I didn't want to trust the dm I should just load up my equipment and venture into the wild with my buddy and hope for the best? Kudos to those who do. Shore diving is enough excitement for me without my tour guide.

**CUT and PASTE**

I have read a lot of the incidents and near misses and it seems there are a lot of experienced divers who have had stuff go wrong well as the newbies. The water is an amazing place and scary for me since I didn't grow up being a fish. I just think a lil trust in our fellow divers can go a long way.

Fair enough

Some of which get sidetracked and may need a reminder of how deep they are or where they are wandering off to.

I hope I am reading you wrong. Do you really think that an appropriate role for a dive guide is to make sure divers don't forget their depth or pay attention to their navigation? It seems to me that watching one's depth and time is one of the most basic things that a diver should have learned to do, and expect to do (along with watching one's own gas supply). If you are giving over responsibility for those things to a guide, in my opinion, you are not diving, you are a monitored float.

Depth: no, Nav: ..ehhh maybe a little:hiding:, Air: No way for sure! If the plan is to follow, be sure to know how to regain the leader if you get separated, or surface if you can't find the DM.

My observation is that it happens, and not infrequently. So what is a dive leader to do? And more importantly, at least to me for now, what is someone on the same dive to do?

Should there be a rating of "Resort DM?" This rating should probably be pretty high, above instructor...

And I am old enough to have been taught responsibility for self comes first and foremost. I am in control of my gauges and I know where the surface is and pray I get there appropriately.

Prayer should not really be a key part of a dive plan, bail plan, or any plan for that matter, and getting to the surface IS key.

**********************************************************

Ok, a lot of good points. Though there hasn't been a solid consensus of the hard definition of a trust me dive is yet. Maybe there isn't one.

So about the list... Surely this list isn't complete. Is it in the right order? Where would high entanglement area go? Where would dry-suit go?

AND

OK, then how does one participate in the plan? Should I demand to see topo maps of the area?

And thanks marymac for sticking your neck out there on this forum. I am pretty sure a lot of other newbies are a little intimidated to admit doing something many say not to do.

:zen:

 

[knowone]

Once?

Read everything go diving more.

In between reading, and, diving.

Invest in fear and only spend the interest.

 

[TSandM]

I think the reason you are not getting a hard definition is that there isn't one. At one end of the spectrum is the dive you conceive, research, plan and execute with your buddy; at the other end is following a DM to 130 feet through a swimthrough on your 7th dive of your life. In between are gradations of ceding responsibility for the dive (which is the essence of "trust me" diving). There are clearly cases (for example, in classes) where one cedes a significant amount of responsibility to the instructor, and these are generally accepted "trust me" dives. There are other cases where there is just a little leaning on someone else, like following a dive guide through what he sees as the most interesting or fun path in a given site (but always retaining your own ability to reach the surface or boat or shore safely without him). The degree of trust, and the degree of risk that comes along with it, has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wow ... someone brought this thread back to the surface today ... gotta be the most egregious example of a trust-me dive I've ever heard of ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[L2R]

This doesn't exactly fit the definition, but I've always felt depending only on your dive computer as a " trust me" - I catch flak from other divers / instructors when I use my laminated dive charts and dive watch, as a "general parameters" guide - the computer is GREAT - I LOVE my computer, but I love knowing, with just a quick glance at my watch, that it's working fine when I'm 100ft under even more.

 

[G9]

Very eloquent.

Those little voices are there for a reason ... and no matter how skilled you become, they never go away. You should always listen to them ... they're trying to keep you alive.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)


They only get stronger

I sometimes wonder, what if?

Often.

Me too. I don't think this is macabre. A little concern keeps me grounded in my assessment of the risks vs my skills. Athletes will tell you that mental rehearsal improves performance. This applies to dealing with problems/the unexpected too. If you never let yourself think about what may (reasonably) go wrong, then it is a BIG surprise if it ever happens.

 

[beester]

I've never understood divers religiously following a dm on a holiday dive. I really don't want to sound chauvinistic in any way but I notice this alot more on cruises or ops frequented alot by US divers. Maybe it's not dependent nationality but more on location, ie places where you have alot of resort style holidays.


Anyway I don't want to have a DM banging his banger, shaking his stick, telling me to ascend a bit, etc. Luckily most ops will watch you during the check dive and let you be on your merry way... unfortunately sometimes not and this is more frequent in the caribean.

 

[Qnape]

I think the reason you are not getting a hard definition is that there isn't one. At one end of the spectrum is the dive you conceive, research, plan and execute with your buddy; at the other end is following a DM to 130 feet through a swimthrough on your 7th dive of your life.

I think this hits the nail on the head, but would also suggest that many divers participating in a "trust-me" dive know in their heart of hearts that it is just that - thus the "little voice" that may playing in their minds, trying to keep them alive. Like pornography, you may not be readily able to define a "trust-me" dive, but often you will know one when you see one.

Perhaps a clearer example is useful - are you entering an overhead environment? Every diver is (supposed to be) taught NOT to do this without specific training for what should be obvious reasons (at least this was drummed into ME in OW training). I have to believe that most divers following a DM into an overhead environment with no prior training KNOW at some level that they are doing something they were taught not to do. They may not wish to admit it, or may rationalize that dive's position on the continuum / spectrum others have discussed to justify their decision to proceed. They want to experience the cavern, or the wreck, and after all, the DM says - don't worry (= TRUST ME), I'll guide you through it.

WHAT MAKES IT WORSE: That vacation divers are often led to believe that trust-me dives are OK as standard policy. How many OW divers are "guided" into caverns and wrecks where they should KNOW they don't belong without training?

If your dive takes you into an environment that you were taught requires specific training - whether that is a high altitude dive, an overhead environment dive, or a cold water dive - and you do not have that training, your "little voice" should be SCREAMING at you. After all - we were all taught not to do this (or should have been). Not all situations will be so cut and dry - thus the continuum concept. In OW training, we were taught to advance incrementally. If you are used to diving to about 60' and you then dive to 80', your alarm bells may not ring. If your next dive is to 130', I have to believe that most divers KNOW they are on the wrong end of that continuum - but many will proceed anyway, especially if they have a DM telling them it's ok.