what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

[eponym]

In the case where there is not a recognized independent authority (and I think we can agree that RSTC and WRSTC are not) . . .

Accreditation is a matter of accretion.

 

[paolov]

OK, so what do you mean by accredited

are you saying that the shop that decides what it will accept is the accrediting agency?

i was referring to the listing of agencies that Moonglow said contains what they recognize. limited to their dive operations as it may not apply to other peoples choice. or rather the list that Moonglows' Dad gave to his employees to use as reference.

 

[The Chairman]

(and I think we can agree that RSTC and WRSTC are not) . . .

I would suggest that as inadequate and irrelevant as they are, they are the closest thing to an accreditation agency that we have. Of the three agencies I have taught for, only one ascribes to them, and that is out of some misguided idea that they have to for insurance reasons.

Accreditation is a matter of accretion.

What an odd way of putting it. I guess that an agency's relative popularity would result in growth or atrophy, but I hate accepting them on that aspect alone. For me, the best word for this scenario would be "accepted" or "recognized". Those two are completely subjective and describe the majority of inclusions or rejections that any specific agency might experience. It's obvious to me that while acceptance may be based on an esoteric desire to be fair, exclusion is almost always based on emotion and a desire to demean or inflict hurt. For me as an instructor, I'll accept any and every agency's cards as proof of prior dive instruction. Why subject your clients or prospective clients to any undue pettiness on your part? It's just not professional to draw that kind of line in the sand.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

RSTC was, on paper, a good idea. However, practicing a "lowest common denominator" approach to training standards made them for all intents and purposes useless. At this point I think they're more a marketing tool than an agent for determining what comprises reasonable training standards.

What the industry needs is something completely independent of the agencies ... like ISO ... to create a baseline by which effective training can be measured.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

What the industry needs is something completely independent of the agencies ... like ISO ... to create a baseline by which effective training can be measured.

I don't think a completely independent process is possible--anywhere--and my ISO experience is part of that process.

When I was still part of the public education system, my school district was the first (and to my knowledge still only) large school in the country to seek and attain ISO certification. I was part of the district's internal ISO management team, and my chief role was to be in charge of internal audits. Although I saw some benefit to the process, I also saw the problems. The internal auditing process is supposed to identify and correct problems before the external auditors (the "completely independent" part of the process) came to town. The problem for us during those years began with internal auditing--the people doing the auditing were afraid to ding people for infractions, even the most obvious ones. It was more important for them to play nice with their friends and colleagues than to make the processes work. When people reported problems for the internal auditors to address and saw nothing happen, they became discouraged, especially after they were subjected to the recriminations they had feared for reporting but had been assured would not happen. Rancor and disharmony in the system grew quickly.

So what would happen when the external auditors arrived? I sat in on those audits, and it was obvious to me what the whole problem was. The ISO process is not independent because you have to hire the external auditing team from a number of choices. That team's financial livelihood is based in large part upon the contract they have with you for that service. Removing our certification for serious infractions might cost them that contract if we went with a different firm for the future. They would ding us for only the most mild problems and gloss over the rest, culminating in a glowing report that totally hid the truth. I shook my head in disbelief listening to the glowing commendations we received after an audit that should have failed us miserably. We only did it for a few years before we abandoned the process as an expensive waste of time and effort.

Remember the Enron Scandal? Look at this article to see why the independent auditors (Arthur Anderson) were pressured into ignoring glaring irregularities for the same reason. They made many millions of dollars overlooking Enron's disastrous failures.

I have also been a part of the accreditation team for one of the recognized regional accrediting agencies for the academic world (North Central), and I saw how ineffective that process can be as well, even when they have no real competition. But now they have competition. Originally they all agreed to accredit only the schools that were geographically within their region, but once distance education (especially online) took hold, that went out the window, and they are now competing against each other for schools. Even though they are supposedly non-profit, they still need to get the accreditation fees from enough schools to maintain the bottom line. They even have competition from new non-regional agencies as well. If you look to most of the major online private schools, you will find that they are all accredited. By whom? You will usually see some letters you don't recognize, and you have to follow the trail far enough you will find an agency that exists for the sole purpose of getting paid to put their letters on the accreditation stamp of approval. If you decided to form an academic accreditation agency for private schools in America, you could have it completely set up by the next day and probably be making a good profit with minimal work and no experience within a month or two.

 

[Edward3c]

RSTC was, on paper, a good idea. However, practicing a "lowest common denominator" approach to training standards made them for all intents and purposes useless. At this point I think they're more a marketing tool than an agent for determining what comprises reasonable training standards.

What the industry needs is something completely independent of the agencies ... like ISO ... to create a baseline by which effective training can be measured.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

What like these ISO Standards:

* EN 14153-2/ISO 24801-2 - 'Autonomous Diver’
* EN 14153-3/ISO 24801-3 - 'Dive Leader'
* EN 14413-2/ISO 24802-2 - 'Instructor Level 2'
* ISO 11107 – ‘Nitrox diving’

To dive in Greece (so I understand) divers are required to hold certification from an ISO accredited body (stayed away from that word agency). Other countries are considering similar enforcement, i.e. Egypt.

In Europe it’s the Austrian authorities who are the accreditation body – a country well known for diving, not.

Kind regards

 

[OldNSalty]

As I learned from a 1965 musical, Austria has an excellent navy and their officers are highly prized, surely they must know something of diving.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What like these ISO Standards:

* EN 14153-2/ISO 24801-2 - 'Autonomous Diver’
* EN 14153-3/ISO 24801-3 - 'Dive Leader'
* EN 14413-2/ISO 24802-2 - 'Instructor Level 2'
* ISO 11107 – ‘Nitrox diving’

To dive in Greece (so I understand) divers are required to hold certification from an ISO accredited body (stayed away from that word agency). Other countries are considering similar enforcement, i.e. Egypt.

In Europe it’s the Austrian authorities who are the accreditation body – a country well known for diving, not.

Kind regards

What Europe does is Europe's business. But over here I do not ... under ANY circumstances ... want the US Government to become the "accreditation body". The best way to avoid that is to govern ourselves in a way that imposes responsible standards on what comprises acceptable training practices. So far we've managed, but the trend toward quicker, cheaper and easier does not bode well for maintaining an acceptable level of quality in our training ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OldNSalty]

So what are you instructors required to recognize as I would think that one key to "accredited agency" would be if it is recognized by a lot of other agencies?

So if I show up with an open water card and tell you I want to take an advance class, is there a list of agencies that you accept? If it is an agency you have never heard of is that OK?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So what are you instructors required to recognize as I would think that one key to "accredited agency" would be if it is recognized by a lot of other agencies?

So if I show up with an open water card and tell you I want to take an advance class, is there a list of agencies that you accept? If it is an agency you have never heard of is that OK?

If you show up with an open water card and tell me you want to take an advanced class from me, the first thing I'm going to want to do is take you diving to see where you're at ... even if that card comes from the agency I teach for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)