What length hoses do you have?

[BILLB]

This is really great. I never though this many people can see that the OW water diving as marketed and taught is under attack. Not really, but an open discussion of the methods used by the DIR divers is certainly needed.

What I do not like is some of the DIR folks have made this a religion and damned to all who dive differently (strokes that is). Like I mentioned on one of my first post, I am a recreational diver. I do not do caves or deep wrecks. But, through the proven scientific method of analysis, the long hose and bungeed regulator makes sense for many areas of diving (come up with an area that it would not make sense and that could be a whole other thread).

I also use the pressure gauge on the right side but due to self imposed weight restrictions on my back, I dive only a 120 HP single with H-valves (two first stages). Now this is where I diverge: I also use air air intergrated computer but it is next to my chest. My right wrist has my writing slate with a compass to the forward section. I wear a special right arm holder for an under water light that I always dive with. I have yet to bring the dive knife up from my lower leg mainly because I am not sure of where else I would want it (I know the perferred DIR placement).

I do not use a back plate but a Seaquest back inflation BC (Balance) and find that the weight pockets are the best design that works for me. It has more than enough lift for me and my dry suit.

Yes, keep the dialog going. This forum should have a DIR style page. As ideas keep coming up and experiences are related, who knows what next will improve diving safety and NOT impact the FUN it gives us all.

 

[cybordolphin]

While we are on the discussion of "DIR".....

Something just did not make sense to me when I read up on their idea of OOA drills.

If I were to give my dive buddy MY primary reg.... and for some reason my backup failed.... we are both screwed.

No way am I going to make it to the surface (after realizing my backup was failed), with him tagging along for the ride (not in time to save my life).... and he is screwed cause if I am drowning.... no way is he going to be able to swim around with me danglin along pukin under water.

So we are then faced with a share situation.

Now.... if I gave him my backup first.... and it was pooched.... then he could make the decision to surface and do so.

In the event of backup failure we both die?

I guess I don't get it.

 

[tombiowami]

I find it interesting on this board, the only time I have even seen "strokes" is by people wary of being called one. I have not seen a DIR diver call anyone that, and I really doubt it is because "we cannot get away with it". I have seen the interactions of some of these board members on other boards and see no difference in attitude.

I think honest discussion of DIR and methods is always good, a lot of misinformation gets spread. If a question is posed about DIR or it is brought up...

Concerning the OOA drills, buddy interaction is a cornerstone of DIR, team as a unit. All regs/air supplies should be checked before going in the water as well as at a 15' or so bubble check. Then throughout the dive a good buddy will know how much air he has and his buddy has. One will also be checking his own backup reg during a dive to make sure it is still good, when it is on the necklace no biggie, it should be in a way that requires no hands, just take the main out and pick up the backup with teeth. There is also major emphasis placed on specific regs that have been proven time and time again in brutal environments.

I am wondering if some people do not like the specifics and cookie cutter attitude of DIR, as in do not tell me what to do type of thing. The nature of DIR is to have a set of gear/attitudes which are identical, or very similar which increases fun and safety. Of course anyone is welcome to eschew them if they please.

Tommy

 

[Lost Yooper]

Cyberdolphin,

Doomsday scenarios are pretty easy to imagine, but if you use quality gear and follow the rest of it, those things are very unlikely to occur.

DIR is a very disciplined method of diving that was developed by some of the most experienced extreme cavers in the world. It's a proven system that works flawlessly in virtually every diving environment. Unfortunately, some of the originators possess a "less than diplomatic" attitude which is a turn off to some.
However, as this wildfire called DIR continues to take off, it reaches people of various attitudes (the vast majority of which are very good). DIR discussions are great for the diving community because they allow unknowing people the chance to learn about it.

It doesn't matter to me if someone is DIR or not, so long as they aren't with me on a difficult or advanced dive. No one likes to be attacked, but passionate debates are entertaining and often quite eduactional. That is what these boards are all about, I believe.

Later.

Mike

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by cybordolphin
While we are on the discussion of "DIR".....

Something just did not make sense to me when I read up on their idea of OOA drills.

If I were to give my dive buddy MY primary reg.... and for some reason my backup failed.... we are both screwed.

I guess I don't get it.

Let's think about this. Assume your safe second has failed and you don't know it.
Scenario #1 - you pass off your primary, pick up your secondary and check it. It has failed. You then calmly signal your [new] buddy, who now has had two or three breaths, that the second has failed and you need to buddy breathe. You buddy breathe to the surface.
Scenario #2 - you pass off the bad second to the OOA diver, who tries it and it doesn't work. The chances are pretty good that he [she] was already highly agitated and near panic when he [she] arrived, and will now be placed in a state of pure panic by the bad reg situation. This is not good, and recovery is much more difficult than in scenario #1.
That is why I brief my buddy to take my primary right out of my mouth if she needs to - signal if there's time, but if you need it just take it. If my second doesn't work we're just in a buddy-breathe situation - a bit of a pain but no big deal.
Rick

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

Let's think about this. Assume your safe second has failed and you don't know it.

Let's think about this...
Rick and Yoop make good points...
But let's be real honest here too...
Your safe second on a necklace is not going to fail!!!
Describe a way that it could fail....
Your safe second in a long *octopus* hose could fail...
And without you knowing it!!!
Describe all the ways it could fail....

The only way that I can see a necklace not being immeadiately available to breath is in the case of doubles and a left post roll off which is simply solved by reaching back and rolling the left post back on.... no big deal.

And I also agree with Tommy that the only people here who are mentioning "stroke" are those who are anti-DIR and have a chip on their shoulder...which by the way is a huge entanglement hazard.

Lets be civil and allow civil discussion...
Have opinions and share them....
But keep your perjorative terms for posts on rec.scuba....

And remember,
Uncle Pug Loves you!

 

[cybordolphin]

Hmmmm....

A defenite difference in phylosophy. In a true out of air situation it has been proven (exstensively), that when BOTH divers share a single reg... they usually end up dead (more often than not). I am not talking about a controlled training excersize. Panic does funny things to people. And like it or not... it hits most everyone (well except me). Many people just have not faced death and "come back"... and they can't handle it. I actually thought I might have had an addiction to this.... and realized it was just being a tad young and my risk tolerance was just a bit higher.

It just seems to me... that at the point you give up your primary....
you have crossed a line that may not be able to get back over.
If your buddy that you gave your primary to.... indeed is in a panic situation.... you are not going to get that reg back. And if you do... it probably won't be for long (or in a consistent enough basis to survive). If your backup is failed... you probably will both die. And you have not left yourself the ability to surface (alone).

I spose its just best to accept that your backup will NEVER fail.
Ok... if you say so.

Will this discourage me from learning more about DIR diving...?
Probably not. I like everything else they teach. I also like training more than most, in whatever I do.

And hey... I don't mind taking risk(s).

Please keep in mind... I am not talking about forgetting to do ANYTHING. I am talking about the unlikely event of a failed piece of equipment.

 

[tombiowami]

hmmm...

if I
forget my surface reg check
forget my buddies surface reg check
forget my 15' bubble check
forget my buddies 15' bubble check
forget my 15' reg checks
forget my buddies 15' reg checks
forget my regular 2nd reg check
forget my buddy should be doing the same 2nd reg check
forget my buddies air pressure
forget my buddy rules of mutal survival

And,
my buddy runs out of air, at the same time my 2nd reg fails, and my buddy cannot buddy breathe for what ever reason..

Darwin's Law?
or
Murphy's Law?

The problems some are descibing do not seem really related to DIR configurations.

I don't know that I would count on my reg not failing, but regular maint. and checks and OOA drills can sure let me know something is up.


Tommy

 

[cybordolphin]

Tommy...

Or you can just narrow it down a bit.

1) Your buddy runs out of air.
2) Your backup fails.

At that point, likely neither of you can surface alone If you have given up your primary.

The numbers say if you are forced to share a reg to the top....
you will likely have a total loss situation.

************************************************

Its the only practice of DIR I need to get comfortable with.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by cybordolphin

Its the only practice of DIR I need to get comfortable with.

Cybor,
Your senario...
Could happen just as easily to a non-DIR configured diver...

I actually have had an OOA buddy breathing ascent and didn't die.... neither did my buddy... it was no big deal really...

But then in those days (before DIR) we trained to do buddy breathing in our OW classes....

Training....

BTW the senario you mention of your buddy OOA and you have a failed secondary???

Throw in a mask off and staged decompression requirements and you will get a feeling for what is taught in a GUE class....