What is the fundamental reason that prevents scuba diving from becoming popular?

[Wibble]

I understand the term "master" to mean someone with excellent overall knowledge and experience of a subject over a wide range of circumstances.

The critical point here is experience. In diving terms this means diving in a wide range of conditions, different depths, different kit, overheads, enclosed environments, boat handling, etc. But most of all it means someone who's got the scars from experience of failures, rescues, etc.

Arguably that's why a DiveMaster course is several weeks/months working around a dive centre. However this only gives experience in a narrow range of conditions; those found at that dive centre.

I'm harsh as I judge people based on their skills and knowledge that I see in the people I dive with -- most are excellent and highly self-sufficient. I do not want to experience another death due to incompetence and poor kit configuration.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Because a DiveMASTER "qualification" is a worthless marketing gimmick that requires no mastery of skills nor in-depth knowledge.

I wrote that last year I met a nice DM lass in Taiwan. She left her Perdix lying around so I picked it up and gave it to her when she went looking for it and couldn't find it. Told her don't leave it lying around her reply was that most of the dives she leads are for people with OW and AOW. Anyway I was showing her the features and how to have the Perdix DC to show clear when completing the safety stop.
She didn't know about a lot of the features of the Perdix she was very surprised at my screen setup and what it showed and asked could I show her how to setup her Perdix to same. I told her on my settings my NDL time would be longer than hers as she was on the most conservative setting and I was not.

When I also showed her about gas planning and RMV/ Sac rate and how many liters of air an AL 80 holds with 200 bar, how many liters a minute she could calculate, she had no idea. She didn't know about sac rates gas consumption or gas planning or the different gradient factors you could choose to use. Of course she knew the deeper you went the faster you used your air.
She only knew how to dive to monitor NDL and and not exceed that with her divers or let them get low on air.
She planned on becoming an instructor in her future. She has over a thousand dives and was fun to dive with. We didn't do any divers deeper than 24m over those days.

I cannot say her qualification is worthless as that's how she earns a living.

Does it cover the skillset that many of you would want for deep dives to 40m? Maybe not.

 

[boulderjohn]

How does a DM not have a certification for diving deep(er)?????????

Because a DiveMASTER "qualification" is a worthless marketing gimmick that requires no mastery of skills nor in-depth knowledge.

As I said earlier, DMs do not have to have the deep diver specialty because the skills for that specialty are incorporated into the DM course. If the person is a DM for PADI at least, they have had that training.

 

[boulderjohn]

Entry requirement: 50 dives. You know nothing at that point and have done nothing but courses (min OW, AOW, Rescue and maybe your putting up a SMB speciality)

You are evidently not aware that the DM certification is not handed out as soon as you reach the requirements for entering the program. You have to do things after you have the entry requirements. I had about 100 dives when I started DM training in my local shop, and the whole certification process took me a couple of months.

Entry requirements for all advanced certifications, including tech diving, are minor and almost worthless screening tools. What matters is what you are able to do in relation to the standards for the course. When you achieve the standards for the course, you get certified. It does not matter where you were when you started.

Is it possible that some programs allow unqualified divers to get certified. Yes, it can happen, as it does in all walks of life.

 

[Wibble]

You are evidently not aware that the DM certification is not handed out as soon as you reach the requirements for entering the program. You have to do things after you have the entry requirements. I had about 100 dives when I started DM training in my local shop, and the whole certification process took me a couple of months.

Entry requirements for all advanced certifications, including tech diving, are minor and almost worthless screening tools. What matters is what you are able to do in relation to the standards for the course. When you achieve the standards for the course, you get certified. It does not matter where you were when you started.

Is it possible that some programs allow unqualified divers to get certified. Yes, it can happen, as it does in all walks of life.

(I've always bitched about the misuse of the name "master" when its nothing of the sort. If it were called "Dive Leader" or better still "Recreational Dive Leader" then balance would be resumed.

Next a whinge about the use of "Advanced" in AOW when that's a beginner's course with nothing remotely advanced on the sylabus.)

 

[boulderjohn]

(I've always bitched about the misuse of the name "master" when its nothing of the sort. If it were called "Dive Leader" or better still "Recreational Dive Leader" then balance would be resumed.

Next a whinge about the use of "Advanced" in AOW when that's a beginner's course with nothing remotely advanced on the sylabus.)

One of the worst aspects of being a long-time veteran of ScubaBoard is seeing these same old arguments about these words revived again and again and again and again and again and again. There is no question that the words are confusing in their common usage, but there is a history that explains each.

The key part of the original use of the divemaster was to be in charge of the dives. The word "master" was historically used for people in charge of certain operations--such as a quartermaster. That is the historical context of the word--using a different context is misleading. Unfortunately, many people misunderstand that context and assume something that is not true.

Sixt years ago, there were only two certifications a diver could get--1) Open Water (or Scuba) diver or 2) Instructor. Then Los Angeles County decided divers were more likely to stick with the sport if they were introduced to different kinds of diving, so they created a more advanced certification, which they quite logically labeled "advanced," since it was the most advanced training you could get without becoming an instructor. NAUI followed suit soon after. The name has stuck and no longer makes sense in the modern world of diving. PADI actually tried to change it with their "Adventures in Diving" program, but it didn't work.

Then people started training that was even more advanced than advanced, and they had to find a name for that. The word "master" made sense.

 

[Wibble]

Then people started training that was even more advanced than advanced, and they had to find a name for that. The word "master" made sense.

Then along came training that was more advanced than [recreational] dive leader master. The word "technical" was born.


(Thanks for the point about quartermaster — not thought of that meaning)

 

[TMHeimer]

One of the worst aspects of being a long-time veteran of ScubaBoard is seeing these same old arguments about these words revived again and again and again and again and again and again. There is no question that the words are confusing in their common usage, but there is a history that explains each.

The key part of the original use of the divemaster was to be in charge of the dives. The word "master" was historically used for people in charge of certain operations--such as a quartermaster. That is the historical context of the word--using a different context is misleading. Unfortunately, many people misunderstand that context and assume something that is not true.

Sixt years ago, there were only two certifications a diver could get--1) Open Water (or Scuba) diver or 2) Instructor. Then Los Angeles County decided divers were more likely to stick with the sport if they were introduced to different kinds of diving, so they created a more advanced certification, which they quite logically labeled "advanced," since it was the most advanced training you could get without becoming an instructor. NAUI followed suit soon after. The name has stuck and no longer makes sense in the modern world of diving. PADI actually tried to change it with their "Adventures in Diving" program, but it didn't work.

Then people started training that was even more advanced than advanced, and they had to find a name for that. The word "master" made sense.

Yes....We should all just keep this post and put it out there everytime the advanced & master thing emerges.
It is interesting though that before 2010 the PADI DM course didn't have the Deep component (I did the old course just before it changed). I already had Deep cert. but did wonder about that myself.
What exactly do the DMCs do now regarding Deep? It can't be as thorough as the Deep Course itself, no?

 

[boulderjohn]

The deep dive requirement simply calls for them to do a deep dive using proper procedures. They have to do some compass navigation, which is also part of the deep dive. They must also set up emergency breathing apparatus of some kind at safety stop depth.

The important thing about the dive master course is that it is supposed to prepare the diver for employment. If the diver/instructor shirks on the requirements, the diver is less hirable. A challenge is that different potential employers have different requirements for the DMs they hire. Many of these employers know that a typical new DM will not be ready to work in their environment, so they include some form of training period or internship in their hiring process. For example, DMs working boats in south Florida will have to set up a line for a wreck diving by hot dropping down to the wreck while hauling a mooring line. That is absolutely not taught in DM training, so new DMs have to go through a training program to do that.

I have several times been part of a group being led by a DM we were specifically told was in training. We were selected to be part of his group because we were more experienced and really didn't need a DM. On one such dive in particular, we were told that everyone in the group had more dives than the DM. That was fine. People have to start somewhere.

It is the same in many different vocations. Newly minted employees frequently go through extensive training periods in the beginning of their employment.

 

[Blackcrusader]

We can discuss about the BC breathing technique all you want. There are many reasons this is not teached anymore. I sincerely and utterly believe that from 40m depth your chances of survival are very, very limited. You must understand that although it could be done in extreme situations, we don't want newer divers in this forum to get and mimic stupid and potentially deadly ideas.

Are new OW divers going to 40m? Maybe new OW divers shouldn't be doing 40m dives after all that could be a potentially deadly idea
Pretty much all the new OW and AOW divers I meet in Asia are vacation divers who rent gear and dive with guides who tend to keep them to shallower depths and once a dive gets to half tank the whole group is brought up to 15m or 10m depth. Many don't even own a DC yet so depend on relying on a buddy or guide. Some will end up diving more and buy their own equipment some will just do the odd vacation dives so not bother with buying equipment.