"What if ..?"

[AndyNZ]

LOL. Now that really IS funny.... a doctor *injecting* humour.

Stop needling the guy, Rob. That's hardly fair....

 

[hobodiver]

If you say so. It is interesting to note that none of those examples depend upon you for their daily needs or sense of security in the world and that you have stated that you have no intention of having children. So how exactly do you know it does not make one special? I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that the most dangerous animal of any species is a mother protecting it's young - not its parents or siblings or spouse. Why is that if there is nothing special about the relationship?

I think she is referring to the idea that a parent should be given special consideration when considering weather to risk one's own life (or possibly give it up) for someone just because they have a child.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I think she is referring to the idea that a parent should be given special consideration when considering weather to risk one's own life (or possibly give it up) for someone just because they have a child.

Outside consideration is not required at all. Keeping with Trace's original concept, each decision (to stay or to go) is a personal decision being made because of the fiber that makes up the individual. Every person is different and has different things driving them. This is not something that we can judge a person on or call right or wrong (no matter what certain members here believe) unless we believe the intentions of the diver are questionable.

 

[Sas]

If you say so. It is interesting to note that none of those examples depend upon you for their daily needs or sense of security in the world and that you have stated that you have no intention of having children. So how exactly do you know it does not make one special? I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that the most dangerous animal of any species is a mother protecting it's young - not its parents or siblings or spouse. Why is that if there is nothing special about the relationship?

Just to respond to this further (I have been busy ), the stuff about animals isn't correct. There are plenty of animals that kill their young, or leave the weak ones to die (including humans) or have nothing to do with the babies once they are born. There might very well be a species, or even many, where the mother is very protective of their young but it is irrelevant really, as to whether parents are more deserving to live over a childless person just because they have children.

 

[Walter]

I am not sure how things would change if it was a family member or my partner. Anyone else I would think it more rational to leave behind so I would try to, to save myself, but I don't know if I could leave my partner, my brother, my sister or my mother.

Actually, it would be the rational choice regardless of who the other diver might be. Depending on the buddy, rational tought may well go out the window.

I really don't get the 'save women and children' first mentality, myself.

That's almost hardwired into us for racial survival. With our over population problems today, it's no longer a rational response.

And I have to worry about my partner, and my mother, and my sister and my brother and my friends.

Having a kid does not make you special, in that regard.

And that, my dear, is where you are wrong. Not ever having had kids, you have no basis for comparison. I lost my mother 22 years ago. That was the hardest blow I've ever had to endure. My father is quite old and in failing health, I'm not looking forward to losing him. I have brothers and sisters I love dearly. I am lucky enough to have found the love of my life. I have some very dear friends. I also have children. There is absolutely no comparison of the depth of feeling one has for anyone else and what one has for their children.

 

[muddiver]

Getting old ain't for sissys

 

[DaleC]

I think she is referring to the idea that a parent should be given special consideration when considering weather to risk one's own life (or possibly give it up) for someone just because they have a child.

I understand that, and in the context of the OP it should not matter as both divers have knowingly put themselves at risk with full knowledge of their obligations (big difference to me). I think we were discussing whether having a dependant child (or person I suppose) would have a bearing on choosing who lives or dies in general terms. If one is a cave diver they had better figure all that stuff out ahead of time.

What I do know is that most of us think/act from our own reference point. There is no judgement in that regard from me although I have always thought it was a higher human calling to try and understand the viewpoints of others. To me this is the basis of developing empathy. I don't knock Sas for thinking what she thinks - I'm just trying to understand her.

 

[Diver0001]

I found that in real life it is VERY hard to leave someone behind. My past history demonstrates I might not do the rational thing.

.

That's *exactly* my experience as well. I've been involved in a few rescues of divers ... from panic, to being lost, disorientated and confused, to OOA, to entanglement and all the way up to drowned-and dead already and *every* *single* *time* I've been in that situation, the same thing happens.

Something inside me goes "click" and I become extremely task-focused. I go from my usual laid back self to some kind of rescue-machine with the single minded focus of the terminator.... Maybe the best name for it is the "rescueator" LOL

It's not only limited to diving either. I've had the same click at vehicle accidents and other situations where people's lives were at stake.

I'm not saying this is a good thing. It's certainly not the *wise* thing, as Sas is so eager to point out -- I stand a good chance after the "click" of pushing myself over the edge too -- but I'll tell you one thing.....

If you parachuted into a stinking pit of chaos there's not a single person in the world you would want to have at your side more than someone like me. LOL

The really terrible thing about this is that my usual dive buddy is every bit as extreme about this as I am. We go out together and we'll come back together. Or not at all. We both know it.

R...

 

[Sas]

That's almost hardwired into us for racial survival. With our over population problems today, it's no longer a rational response.

I was asking my partner about this actually. He says men are raised with the idea that they must protect others so it would be a natural response. I don't think that this makes it correct, however.

There is absolutely no comparison of the depth of feeling one has for anyone else and what one has for their children.

This is idealistic and untrue. Some parents this applies to (the majority I would expect), other parents it does not. It all goes back to the fact that one cannot determine who is more valuable to save just based on whether they have children or not. On the balance of probabilities they probably do have a special relationship with their children but this does not make them more worthy of saving to me. There are other things that might be more important than this "special relationship" too, it's not the be-all and end-all of what is important in life as some of us don't see a need for it.

 

[Diver0001]

This is idealistic and untrue.

We can see from this reaction that you are not a mother.

It's not idealistic. It's a fact... driven by genetics.

I'm a parent and I'll tell you with 1000% certainty.... I'd rather die than see one of my kids die.

and I think every.... single.... parent... .in the world would agree with that and without hesitation.

If you don't see it like that... whatever....... "hush and listen"

R..