What if all instruction was free...

[Kim]

What I meant was that in many places it would be very difficult to find an instructor! Actually it already is. It would be very hard to do a DIR-F course in Japan for instance - or most Technical courses that exist. I'm not knocking the idea - I'm just wondering about practicalities!

 

[David Evans]

I believe the dive industry (specifically, consumer perception of it) is ENTIRELY upside-down. I believe there is virtually no value placed on instruction, and high value placed on equipment (and therefore, equipment sales).

I happen to be an independent instructor, and teach periodically through two shops. My instructor certifications, combined, cost over $3000 by the time all the manuals and everything were purchased, and I paid for it myself. My insurance costs over $500 per year.

I get paid somewhere between $50-$75 per student for my OW classes, which involve 5 nights of lecture, four pool sessions, and six open water dives (or more, if the student needs it). I'm fortunate to be married to an assistant instructor, which means I can generally handle up to 6 students at a time... more than that is insane.

So, assuming 6 students at $75/head, I get paid $450 for a full OW class. This class takes roughly 40 hours of my time, or roughly $11 per hour (which doesn't include driving time or gasoline, or other expenses like that).

If I can teach one class every other month, which is a LOT, it takes me almost two years to recoup just the investment I have in my instructor training and insurance... nevermind all the other classes and equipment I've paid for (and enjoyed!) to get to the point where could be a competent instructor....

Now, if it sounds like I'm being a whiner, I'm not... I enjoy teaching. But the point is that the reason quality diving instruction is hard to find is NOT because it's too expensive.... it's because it's TOO CHEAP.

Diving instructors do what they do because they love diving. The agencies do everything they can do to make classes as short as possible, because the more students they certify, the more money they make. Dive shops make classes cheap (a loss leader) so that students will come in and buy gear, which is how they keep the doors open. New OW students come into diving thinking it's easy, and subsequently find benefit in classes that are shortest and cheapest, rather than longest and most expensive.

It amazes me to watch new students come into a class and complain about it costing $175, only to see them spend a couple of thousand bucks on gear after the class is over without batting an eye.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant...

But remembering that I'm just a diver too, as I look back on my diving career the things that have been MOST VALUABLE to me were the classes I've taken. Gear comes and goes, but the education I've received is what I will benefit from for as long as I live.

If I had it my way, classes would be a month long and cost $3000.... and they'd be worth every penny....

-david

 

[headhunter]

What I meant was that in many places it would be very difficult to find an instructor! Actually it already is. It would be very hard to do a DIR-F course in Japan for instance - or most Technical courses that exist. I'm not knocking the idea - I'm just wondering about practicalities!

I got you Kim! I just misunderstood you.

Most likely you'll see DIR-F courses around the world as more of the students move to the instructor level. That may take a while if they maintain high standards, but I think it would eventually become more common. That's just my best guess, of course, I''m not sure what it actually takes to become one of their instructors.

Christian

 

[headhunter]

I believe the dive industry (specifically, consumer perception of it) is ENTIRELY upside-down. I believe there is virtually no value placed on instruction, and high value placed on equipment (and therefore, equipment sales).

I happen to be an independent instructor, and teach periodically through two shops. My instructor certifications, combined, cost over $3000 by the time all the manuals and everything were purchased, and I paid for it myself. My insurance costs over $500 per year.

I get paid somewhere between $50-$75 per student for my OW classes, which involve 5 nights of lecture, four pool sessions, and six open water dives (or more, if the student needs it). I'm fortunate to be married to an assistant instructor, which means I can generally handle up to 6 students at a time... more than that is insane.

So, assuming 6 students at $75/head, I get paid $450 for a full OW class. This class takes roughly 40 hours of my time, or roughly $11 per hour (which doesn't include driving time or gasoline, or other expenses like that).

If I can teach one class every other month, which is a LOT, it takes me almost two years to recoup just the investment I have in my instructor training and insurance... nevermind all the other classes and equipment I've paid for (and enjoyed!) to get to the point where could be a competent instructor....

Now, if it sounds like I'm being a whiner, I'm not... I enjoy teaching. But the point is that the reason quality diving instruction is hard to find is NOT because it's too expensive.... it's because it's TOO CHEAP.

Diving instructors do what they do because they love diving. The agencies do everything they can do to make classes as short as possible, because the more students they certify, the more money they make. Dive shops make classes cheap (a loss leader) so that students will come in and buy gear, which is how they keep the doors open. New OW students come into diving thinking it's easy, and subsequently find benefit in classes that are shortest and cheapest, rather than longest and most expensive.

It amazes me to watch new students come into a class and complain about it costing $175, only to see them spend a couple of thousand bucks on gear after the class is over without batting an eye.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant...

But remembering that I'm just a diver too, as I look back on my diving career the things that have been MOST VALUABLE to me were the classes I've taken. Gear comes and goes, but the education I've received is what I will benefit from for as long as I live.

If I had it my way, classes would be a month long and cost $3000.... and they'd be worth every penny....

-david

David,

I think you make a good point. If a great instructor can't really make a decent living at it, he'll most likely do something else for a living and treat being a dive instructor as more of a hobby.

I think that dive instructors should be able to make a decent living. That's why I think that a different business model is in order.

Thanks for sharing that info with those of us that are unaware of the costs involved.

Christian

 

[Kim]

There's actually a possible chance to do the DIR-F coming up in Okinawa - for about $350 - not including flight and accomodation (or new equipment costs!!). Unfortunately my work schedule and/or wife won't let me even consider it!!

When I did my IANTD Overhead Environment it was with JC in Tioman, Malaysia. At the time (maybe still) he was the only instructor in Asia who could do this course - there definitely still isn't one listed in Japan. If I want to move to Trimix/Extended Range/Cave or Wreck I'll have to go back to Tioman - or the States. Sometimes there really aren't many choices. I actually to think that the quality of instruction thing seems to exist more for the basic certs - the higher level of cert that you want - the more difficult to find an instructor - but possibly the better instructor you'll get! That might not be correct - but I've never heard of a technical diver complaining about the instructor!! In any event I know that JC (Jean-Claude Chappuis) is an excellent instructor - and I just love Tioman - so maybe I shouldn't moan!!

 

[vjongene]

When I was first certified (73) my "BASIC SCUBA DIVER" certification took about 10 weeks and the instructor (PADI #2083) taught us everything he knew about diving. I don't remember the cost but I was a college student so it couldn't have been much.

---------snip---------

Does this already exist somewhere ?

I started a thread not so long ago on a similar subject, explaining how volunteer instruction is working in the club I belong to (http://www.scubaboard.com/t60007.html). There are alternatives to the "you get what you pay for" model. And they are not necessarily socialist or state-sponsored. What do we get out of providing volunteer instruction? Mostly new friends and buddies, and the satisfaction of having introduced a few people to diving. The students, OTOH, have to accept some constraints that they may not have in a pay-for-services arrangement.

 

[jbd]

I started a thread not so long ago on a similar subject, explaining how volunteer instruction is working in the club I belong to (http://www.scubaboard.com/t60007.html). There are alternatives to the "you get what you pay for" model. And they are not necessarily socialist or state-sponsored. What do we get out of providing volunteer instruction? Mostly new friends and buddies, and the satisfaction of having introduced a few people to diving. The students, OTOH, have to accept some constraints that they may not have in a pay-for-services arrangement.

I saw that thread earlier and one thing I wondered about is liability. I have no clue what your laws are regarding liability.

 

[Kim]

I saw that thread earlier and one thing I wondered about is liability. I have no clue what your laws are regarding liability.

I'm not completely certain but I know that generally in Europe we don't have the same kind of 'lawyer' = 'liability' culture that exists in the States. Normally it's a given that if you do something - you do it at your own risk. Generally - if what you do hurts a third party they might look to your training - if you just hurt yourself - live (or die) with it. Sometimes I wish it was more like the States - sometimes i don't.

 

[jbd]

Another issue possibly overlooked by the thread originator but touched on by David Evans when he mentions his costs. Independent instructors and dive shops have a bundle of money tied up in equipment that is provide at no extra charge during the classes i.e. tanks, regulator setups, wetsuits, watches or timers, compasses. Many have to rent pools to conduct training in. The list of costs to either a dive shop owner or an independent instructor goes on and on. Why should we give away the training? Its the training as much if not more so than the equipment that is going to keep you "safe" and free from injury.

 

[jagfish]

If I want to move to Trimix/Extended Range/Cave or Wreck I'll have to go back to Tioman - or the States. Sometimes there really aren't many choices.

I heard that trimix is illegal in Japan...Have you heard anyting about that. Anyway, I've never seen it, so that in itself would probably put the nix on trimix training...

JAG