That can happen, but rarely does. In most cases instructors teach their agency's standards to the letter, so it's usually the agency that makes the program.
What happened to PADI?
- Thread starter DIVE-A-MUK
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That can happen, but rarely does. In most cases instructors teach their agency's standards to the letter, so it's usually the agency that makes the program.
RussR
Contributor
I have to disagree. Diving to 60' is not really all that difficult and PADI OW class teaches the basics to allow one to dive to this depth safely. It also opens the door to further training and educational opportunities.
I think there would be a lot less divers if the classes were the "Navy Training" many seem to call for.
I am all for additional training and education but not in an OW course.
just my opinion for sure.
I think there would be a lot less divers if the classes were the "Navy Training" many seem to call for.
I am all for additional training and education but not in an OW course.
just my opinion for sure.
I have been drifting around Scubaboard for quite some time.
I have come to greatly respect the opinions of folks like Walter, Thal and others. Too many to list. Even, during the off chance, I would disagree with them. I can truly say that I am a better instructor (and my students are better divers) because of my interaction on Scubaboard.
It is a common theme to see someone post an agency versus agency thread. Or, a thread that bashes one (or several agencies). The pros and cons from each side of the argument come flying in. There is discussion of marketing practices, standards levels, instructor training, etc. Some folks blame an agency for the demise of proper dive skills; while others say it is the instructor who makes the difference and the agency is a tool for the instructor to use. It's been my experience that both sides are generally right and/or wrong. While I am trying to leave names out of this, generally the bigger the agency - the more maligned it gets and the more defenders who race to the maligning. If nothing else, it is humorous.
However, having been around the dive industry and having been on multiple sides of the counter, I think I can offer a unique perspective.
FACT: More people are diving than ever before.
FACT: More programs are being offered to new, novice and experienced divers than ever before.
FACT: Scuba diving is more accessible to men and women of all ages in virtually every nook and cranny around the world. I would consider it mainstream. Thank you agencies!
FACT: Equipment, especially computers, have increased significantly in ease of use, comfort and safety which has helped ease entry into the sport.
FACT: Accidents have remained stable or lessened (per annum average) over the last 20 years. On a pro rata basis, there are more people diving with a far less ratio to accidents.
FACT: The thresholds of mainstream diving are expanding. More divers are diving deep, on wrecks and reaching into Tech or Cave Diving.
FACT: Course materials have significantly improved over the last 20 years, from all agencies. Additionally, the Internet offers computer users a whole realm of information that was not available to divers in the 70s and 80s.
EDUCATED OPINION: Course fees for entry level dive training are almost the same as they were 20 years ago. Maybe less if you do it during the right time of year. This does not even include an adjustment for inflation.
FACT: Costs to the instructor and shop have increased dramatically to deliver a high quality course that would meet the scrutiny of discerning community members on Scubaboard. In fact, I can say with some level of knowledge, that dive shops selling entry level training make very little gross profit. If these shops were to rely solely on training profits to run their business, they would be out of business in weeks (not months).
FACT: Over 70% of newly certified divers leave scuba diving completely. Moving on to other interests or goals.
EDUCATED OPINION: The less than 30% of newly certified divers that do stay in the sport, the lions' share do not dive enough to retain the motor skills they learned during open water.
Thus, while it is easy to point fingers at agencies and instructors for the decline in diver skill levels. I think the greater responsibility for this decline should fall on the following:
1. Divers: If you want to dive somewhat regularly you need to get additional training, practice ongoing what you have learned, and dive often. Even if it is just to freshen up your skills. This would be equivalent to someone who golfs once a year. Don't expect too hit PAR. It is not the responsibility of the instructor, shop or agency to remind you to do these things.
2. Market Driven: The more mainstream Scuba becomes, the more "weekend wonders" we are going to attract to the sport. They may be certified, but they may not be qualified. The cert course they took was probably a three day course crammed with 8 people in the pool. With the economics of most dive shops and the competitive nature of the industry, you can't offer much more. Additionally, this is what the consumer is demanding. I cannot tell you how many times I had people come in the store and ask for an "express" or "executive" course. 8 hours in a pool with 8 people in a class is simple math. That means you have 1 hour of time with an instructor to go through 30+ skills. That is, at most, less than 2 minutes per skill. You cannot build muscle memory or skill retention in two minutes. You certainly can't master it. Further, the store/instructor because of the economics must be selling equipment to these folks. As stated before, most shops (I daresay all shops) would go out of business if they didn't. So, the agency and instructor didn't kill the standards - the "weekend wonder" customer did. It's a simple formula of supply/demand!
If you read through most standards, they are well written (to protect the agency). If they are followed precisely, it would be almost impossible to follow them and complete the course in a weekend (especially in a group session). However, they are also open to interpretation and it is that interpretation that has allowed the fudge factor for quick passing of the student.
However, if I was a paying student, I wouldn't settle for a quick "you're done". If I have signed up to be taught something, I want to know I have learned something. Especially if it involves my personal or children's safety. Some responsibility must be borne by the student that they "know" what they are signing up for and that they make sure they have "learned" what they were supposed to be taught. Unfortunately, most students are fixated on this "card" and place a lower priority on "qualification".
So, where do we go from here? If you are an instructor and truly understand dive shop economics, you must realize that group lessons are tough to definitively deliver the highest quality scuba instruction in a weekend, to all students! I am sure there are those who will argue this point. And, perhaps that is a different thread. However, 1 to 2 minutes per skill does not build muscle memory. If there is more than a week in between the Confined Water and Open Water sessions, most students will forget everything including the hand signals and you will end up refreshing/reteaching in open water. This clearly defeats the purpose of moving from CW to OW.
Unfortunately, the only way to correct this problem is to reformulate pricing and gross profits so training is no longer a loss leader. Imagine, if we charged like a golf pro or guitar teacher, by the hour. They make anywhere from $30 to $80 per hour. It would be a thousand dollar course. Now we are talking muscle memory! Instead most instructors are working for roughly $5 per hour ... but, they are living the dream!
If you are a consumer/customer, it is time to start doing your due diligence. If you truly want to expand your diving, you need to throw away this theory that you owe some shop your allegiance and find the right instructor who is willing to take you to whatever level you desire. This may mean doing business with several different instructors/trainers in many different parts of the world. As a discriminating consumer, you need to ask what is included in the course (not just equipment and materials) but what training. As a consumer, you need to compare these curriculums and choose what is the best, not the quickest and cheapest. Then it is your responsibility to practice and continue learning. Some advice: Look at independent instructors. Their economic models for teaching Scuba are usually much different.
I wrote this because the agencies aren't evil and most instructors usually have the best interest of their customers in mind. However, there are economies and consumer trends and demands that may drive a decline in diver skill levels. It's time for the diver to step up and take responsibility for their training. Not only get what the pay for but know what their options are and pay for what they need/want. It's time for them to become qualified, not just certified. Additionally, shops and instructors need to stop treating training like a loss leader. It's time the economies of diver training enter the new century (I'd even settle for the 1990s). If you cheapen your price, you have no choice but to cheapen the quality. When shops and instructors use this strategy, it cheapens the entire industry. If the agencies truly want to play a role in diver acquisition and retention, they will lead the charge for shops and instructors to start protecting their margins and charge a professional price for a professional education.
Respectfully,
jcf
I have come to greatly respect the opinions of folks like Walter, Thal and others. Too many to list. Even, during the off chance, I would disagree with them. I can truly say that I am a better instructor (and my students are better divers) because of my interaction on Scubaboard.
It is a common theme to see someone post an agency versus agency thread. Or, a thread that bashes one (or several agencies). The pros and cons from each side of the argument come flying in. There is discussion of marketing practices, standards levels, instructor training, etc. Some folks blame an agency for the demise of proper dive skills; while others say it is the instructor who makes the difference and the agency is a tool for the instructor to use. It's been my experience that both sides are generally right and/or wrong. While I am trying to leave names out of this, generally the bigger the agency - the more maligned it gets and the more defenders who race to the maligning. If nothing else, it is humorous.
However, having been around the dive industry and having been on multiple sides of the counter, I think I can offer a unique perspective.
FACT: More people are diving than ever before.
FACT: More programs are being offered to new, novice and experienced divers than ever before.
FACT: Scuba diving is more accessible to men and women of all ages in virtually every nook and cranny around the world. I would consider it mainstream. Thank you agencies!
FACT: Equipment, especially computers, have increased significantly in ease of use, comfort and safety which has helped ease entry into the sport.
FACT: Accidents have remained stable or lessened (per annum average) over the last 20 years. On a pro rata basis, there are more people diving with a far less ratio to accidents.
FACT: The thresholds of mainstream diving are expanding. More divers are diving deep, on wrecks and reaching into Tech or Cave Diving.
FACT: Course materials have significantly improved over the last 20 years, from all agencies. Additionally, the Internet offers computer users a whole realm of information that was not available to divers in the 70s and 80s.
EDUCATED OPINION: Course fees for entry level dive training are almost the same as they were 20 years ago. Maybe less if you do it during the right time of year. This does not even include an adjustment for inflation.
FACT: Costs to the instructor and shop have increased dramatically to deliver a high quality course that would meet the scrutiny of discerning community members on Scubaboard. In fact, I can say with some level of knowledge, that dive shops selling entry level training make very little gross profit. If these shops were to rely solely on training profits to run their business, they would be out of business in weeks (not months).
FACT: Over 70% of newly certified divers leave scuba diving completely. Moving on to other interests or goals.
EDUCATED OPINION: The less than 30% of newly certified divers that do stay in the sport, the lions' share do not dive enough to retain the motor skills they learned during open water.
Thus, while it is easy to point fingers at agencies and instructors for the decline in diver skill levels. I think the greater responsibility for this decline should fall on the following:
1. Divers: If you want to dive somewhat regularly you need to get additional training, practice ongoing what you have learned, and dive often. Even if it is just to freshen up your skills. This would be equivalent to someone who golfs once a year. Don't expect too hit PAR. It is not the responsibility of the instructor, shop or agency to remind you to do these things.
2. Market Driven: The more mainstream Scuba becomes, the more "weekend wonders" we are going to attract to the sport. They may be certified, but they may not be qualified. The cert course they took was probably a three day course crammed with 8 people in the pool. With the economics of most dive shops and the competitive nature of the industry, you can't offer much more. Additionally, this is what the consumer is demanding. I cannot tell you how many times I had people come in the store and ask for an "express" or "executive" course. 8 hours in a pool with 8 people in a class is simple math. That means you have 1 hour of time with an instructor to go through 30+ skills. That is, at most, less than 2 minutes per skill. You cannot build muscle memory or skill retention in two minutes. You certainly can't master it. Further, the store/instructor because of the economics must be selling equipment to these folks. As stated before, most shops (I daresay all shops) would go out of business if they didn't. So, the agency and instructor didn't kill the standards - the "weekend wonder" customer did. It's a simple formula of supply/demand!
If you read through most standards, they are well written (to protect the agency). If they are followed precisely, it would be almost impossible to follow them and complete the course in a weekend (especially in a group session). However, they are also open to interpretation and it is that interpretation that has allowed the fudge factor for quick passing of the student.
However, if I was a paying student, I wouldn't settle for a quick "you're done". If I have signed up to be taught something, I want to know I have learned something. Especially if it involves my personal or children's safety. Some responsibility must be borne by the student that they "know" what they are signing up for and that they make sure they have "learned" what they were supposed to be taught. Unfortunately, most students are fixated on this "card" and place a lower priority on "qualification".
So, where do we go from here? If you are an instructor and truly understand dive shop economics, you must realize that group lessons are tough to definitively deliver the highest quality scuba instruction in a weekend, to all students! I am sure there are those who will argue this point. And, perhaps that is a different thread. However, 1 to 2 minutes per skill does not build muscle memory. If there is more than a week in between the Confined Water and Open Water sessions, most students will forget everything including the hand signals and you will end up refreshing/reteaching in open water. This clearly defeats the purpose of moving from CW to OW.
Unfortunately, the only way to correct this problem is to reformulate pricing and gross profits so training is no longer a loss leader. Imagine, if we charged like a golf pro or guitar teacher, by the hour. They make anywhere from $30 to $80 per hour. It would be a thousand dollar course. Now we are talking muscle memory! Instead most instructors are working for roughly $5 per hour ... but, they are living the dream!
If you are a consumer/customer, it is time to start doing your due diligence. If you truly want to expand your diving, you need to throw away this theory that you owe some shop your allegiance and find the right instructor who is willing to take you to whatever level you desire. This may mean doing business with several different instructors/trainers in many different parts of the world. As a discriminating consumer, you need to ask what is included in the course (not just equipment and materials) but what training. As a consumer, you need to compare these curriculums and choose what is the best, not the quickest and cheapest. Then it is your responsibility to practice and continue learning. Some advice: Look at independent instructors. Their economic models for teaching Scuba are usually much different.
I wrote this because the agencies aren't evil and most instructors usually have the best interest of their customers in mind. However, there are economies and consumer trends and demands that may drive a decline in diver skill levels. It's time for the diver to step up and take responsibility for their training. Not only get what the pay for but know what their options are and pay for what they need/want. It's time for them to become qualified, not just certified. Additionally, shops and instructors need to stop treating training like a loss leader. It's time the economies of diver training enter the new century (I'd even settle for the 1990s). If you cheapen your price, you have no choice but to cheapen the quality. When shops and instructors use this strategy, it cheapens the entire industry. If the agencies truly want to play a role in diver acquisition and retention, they will lead the charge for shops and instructors to start protecting their margins and charge a professional price for a professional education.
Respectfully,
jcf
OP
DIVE-A-MUK
Registered
HOLY CRAP MON !!!
WHERE TO START ?
TO RICK,
THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT. I THINK YOU HAVE TAKEN MY INTRO IN THE SPIRIT INTENDED.
AND THANKS FOR THE CLEARIFICATION... LOOK EVERYONE, THE SAFETY IS ON !!!!!
TOM
TO CAPT WALT,
THE COARSE AT PURDUE WAS NOT FOR CREDIT. IT WAS OFFERED BY THE LOCAL DIVE SHOP & USED THE UNIVERSITY POOL & A CLASS ROOM.
I ONLY HAVE A FEW MORE YEARS BEFORE MY SON WILL MOVE ON WITH HIS LIFE TOO
(BOUT TO TEAR UP THINKING OF IT)
SINCE HIS 3rd BIRTHDAY THE ONLY THING HE HAS ASKED FOR, A PRESENT, IS A CAMPING, HUNTING, OR FISHING TRIP WITH DAD. YOU KNOW, LEAVE THE WOMEN FOLK AT HOME .
SO NEXT YEAR WILL BE OUR 15 ANNUAL TRIP.AND HIS 18th BIRTHDAY
WE WANT TO DO A WEEK OF DIVING IN THE KEYS OR MAYBE A LIVE-A-BOARD.
I JUST WANT TO BE SURE HE IS READY. WE HAVE ALREADY STARTED WORKING TOWARD OUR ADVANCED OW.
NO GIRL PUSH-UPS GLAD TO HEAR THERE ARE STILL A FEW OF US LEFT.
MY KIDS COME TO ME ASKING FOR WAYS TO EARN $
TANKX FOR YOUR INPUT, LOOKING FORWARD TO MORE !!
TOM
TO WALTER,
WITH THE ONSLAUGHT OF REPLIES, IT APPEARS TO BE UNANAMOUS ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL INSTRUCTOR MAKING THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT A RELIEF !!!
IN FACT I CONTACTED THE DIVE SHOP WHERE I FIRST FINISHED MY OW CERT IN '83 AND HAD THEM SERVICE MY REGS. WHEN I PICHED THEM UP HE HANDED ME A BAGGIE FULL OF THE
O-RINGS AND SPRINGS HE HAD REPLACED, AND TOLD ME
" THESE ARE THE PARTS THAT WE WERE NOT SURE WHAT TO DO WITH."
( PROBABLY OLD HAT TO MOST OF YOU, BUT I LIKE THIS GUY !!)
THEN WE TALKED FOR ABOUT 30 MINUTES AND HE GAVE ME A FREE HISTORY LESSON.
GOTTA LOVE CURSTY OL' BARNICLE COVERED DIVERS
EVEN THOUGH THEIR SHOP IS ABOUT AN HOUR OR SO FURTHER WE ARE GOIN TO TRY THEM FOR SOME OF OUR ADVANCED COARSES
TANKS & STAY IN TOUCH
TOM
WHERE TO START ?
TO RICK,
THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT. I THINK YOU HAVE TAKEN MY INTRO IN THE SPIRIT INTENDED.
AND THANKS FOR THE CLEARIFICATION... LOOK EVERYONE, THE SAFETY IS ON !!!!!
TOM
TO CAPT WALT,
THE COARSE AT PURDUE WAS NOT FOR CREDIT. IT WAS OFFERED BY THE LOCAL DIVE SHOP & USED THE UNIVERSITY POOL & A CLASS ROOM.
I ONLY HAVE A FEW MORE YEARS BEFORE MY SON WILL MOVE ON WITH HIS LIFE TOO
(BOUT TO TEAR UP THINKING OF IT)
SINCE HIS 3rd BIRTHDAY THE ONLY THING HE HAS ASKED FOR, A PRESENT, IS A CAMPING, HUNTING, OR FISHING TRIP WITH DAD. YOU KNOW, LEAVE THE WOMEN FOLK AT HOME .
SO NEXT YEAR WILL BE OUR 15 ANNUAL TRIP.AND HIS 18th BIRTHDAY
WE WANT TO DO A WEEK OF DIVING IN THE KEYS OR MAYBE A LIVE-A-BOARD.
I JUST WANT TO BE SURE HE IS READY. WE HAVE ALREADY STARTED WORKING TOWARD OUR ADVANCED OW.
NO GIRL PUSH-UPS GLAD TO HEAR THERE ARE STILL A FEW OF US LEFT.
MY KIDS COME TO ME ASKING FOR WAYS TO EARN $
TANKX FOR YOUR INPUT, LOOKING FORWARD TO MORE !!
TOM
TO WALTER,
WITH THE ONSLAUGHT OF REPLIES, IT APPEARS TO BE UNANAMOUS ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL INSTRUCTOR MAKING THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT A RELIEF !!!
IN FACT I CONTACTED THE DIVE SHOP WHERE I FIRST FINISHED MY OW CERT IN '83 AND HAD THEM SERVICE MY REGS. WHEN I PICHED THEM UP HE HANDED ME A BAGGIE FULL OF THE
O-RINGS AND SPRINGS HE HAD REPLACED, AND TOLD ME
" THESE ARE THE PARTS THAT WE WERE NOT SURE WHAT TO DO WITH."
( PROBABLY OLD HAT TO MOST OF YOU, BUT I LIKE THIS GUY !!)
THEN WE TALKED FOR ABOUT 30 MINUTES AND HE GAVE ME A FREE HISTORY LESSON.
GOTTA LOVE CURSTY OL' BARNICLE COVERED DIVERS
EVEN THOUGH THEIR SHOP IS ABOUT AN HOUR OR SO FURTHER WE ARE GOIN TO TRY THEM FOR SOME OF OUR ADVANCED COARSES
TANKS & STAY IN TOUCH
TOM
OP
DIVE-A-MUK
Registered
To scuba jcf,
tanks for your input
as a business owner and former corporate clone,
i understand & agree with the point(s) you're making.
I have been required to attend too many slimmy sales technique seminars
and if i were to lower my ethical standards in my business, i would be a wealthy man, financially anyway, but moral bankrupcy is too high a price
i believe it boils down to ethics of the individual
every reputable business struggles to balance profit with product quality and/or service .
Where do we draw that line ?
Do we draw it where our legal liability ends or where our conscience allows
guess not all progress is improvement huh ?
Enough of the heavy philosophy maaaan
as long as walmart (home of the cheap plastic disposable stuff) doesn't go into the scuba business we'll be ok
tom
tanks for your input
as a business owner and former corporate clone,
i understand & agree with the point(s) you're making.
I have been required to attend too many slimmy sales technique seminars
and if i were to lower my ethical standards in my business, i would be a wealthy man, financially anyway, but moral bankrupcy is too high a price
i believe it boils down to ethics of the individual
every reputable business struggles to balance profit with product quality and/or service .
Where do we draw that line ?
Do we draw it where our legal liability ends or where our conscience allows
guess not all progress is improvement huh ?
Enough of the heavy philosophy maaaan
as long as walmart (home of the cheap plastic disposable stuff) doesn't go into the scuba business we'll be ok
tom
It's not unanimous. I certainly don't agree.
H'Islander
Guest
.02 from a greenhorn, product of today's PADI fast track training....
First a brief backscatter - I'm nearly 50, make a meager living in aviation engineering and have dabbled in flying (single engine, land, instrument) and an empty nest Dad to 3.
I include the editorial only to demonstrate that I probably have a better appreciation for safety and a greater sense of apprehension for the unknown (me and Murphy, we be mates, eh?) than, say, the average youngster of 18 to 25 years.
I took the PADI training on-line and wasn't looking to "just pass the test"...I was eager to understand the Why's that demand the How's...But I can see how someone looking to simply "put a check in the box" could skim the data and regurgitate just enough to get certified. That's not to say that doing this makes anyone dangerous unless there is a lack of respect for the dangers that are inherent to the sport.
That said - the pool and OW instruction from the shop that I affiliated with was top notch - and again, how much a student learns and how much gets embedded into their noggins all about the individual and how they apply themselves.
The approach seems to me to be to get new blood interested and to break up the skill sets into progressive certification that will allow folks to get into the water and start diving and then add further challenges as confidence grows. I like the approach.
And I understand the fear that we are teaching too much reliance on the intended function of our gear, relying on a compass as if it will never give a foul reading from the huge chunk of iron buried just under them in the sand, or that the octo will always work 100% of the time when the primary 2-stg fails, etc....or that someone is going to go out there with a basic PADI OW Cert and start diving to 80-100 ft with more experienced pals. Or maybe just jumping in solo without a fear in the world...It can, and probably does happen.
I think that the system is working. I know that intense training has value. But I sometimes sense (and this is where I'll probably get blasted....) that there is a little animosity over seeing someone get certified who didn't have to go through what the old-school students had to endure. To put it a little more bluntly....misery loves company...I know - I feel the same way at times over other, some similar, issues. I think it's human nature....
I think the safety data speaks volumes for the current methodology - Love it or hate it, it seems to be working well....Or am I all wet? (pun intended!)
First a brief backscatter - I'm nearly 50, make a meager living in aviation engineering and have dabbled in flying (single engine, land, instrument) and an empty nest Dad to 3.
I include the editorial only to demonstrate that I probably have a better appreciation for safety and a greater sense of apprehension for the unknown (me and Murphy, we be mates, eh?) than, say, the average youngster of 18 to 25 years.
I took the PADI training on-line and wasn't looking to "just pass the test"...I was eager to understand the Why's that demand the How's...But I can see how someone looking to simply "put a check in the box" could skim the data and regurgitate just enough to get certified. That's not to say that doing this makes anyone dangerous unless there is a lack of respect for the dangers that are inherent to the sport.
That said - the pool and OW instruction from the shop that I affiliated with was top notch - and again, how much a student learns and how much gets embedded into their noggins all about the individual and how they apply themselves.
The approach seems to me to be to get new blood interested and to break up the skill sets into progressive certification that will allow folks to get into the water and start diving and then add further challenges as confidence grows. I like the approach.
And I understand the fear that we are teaching too much reliance on the intended function of our gear, relying on a compass as if it will never give a foul reading from the huge chunk of iron buried just under them in the sand, or that the octo will always work 100% of the time when the primary 2-stg fails, etc....or that someone is going to go out there with a basic PADI OW Cert and start diving to 80-100 ft with more experienced pals. Or maybe just jumping in solo without a fear in the world...It can, and probably does happen.
I think that the system is working. I know that intense training has value. But I sometimes sense (and this is where I'll probably get blasted....) that there is a little animosity over seeing someone get certified who didn't have to go through what the old-school students had to endure. To put it a little more bluntly....misery loves company...I know - I feel the same way at times over other, some similar, issues. I think it's human nature....
I think the safety data speaks volumes for the current methodology - Love it or hate it, it seems to be working well....Or am I all wet? (pun intended!)
H'Islander:
No blasting, but you're basic concept is wrong. The longer, more comprehensive approach is easier, no misery involved.
vyvial
Registered
H'Islander
Guest
Fair enough, brother. Admittedly I have a long road of learning ahead of me and my current mind-set is fledgling in nature. I'm confident enough in my present skills, and smart enough to know what I possess at this time is just the tip of the jalapeno!!
Those people who think they know everytrhing are very annoying to those of us that do....
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