What goes into a Trimix course?

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so the jump from tech 1 to tech 2 is huge, skills-wise. instead of ascending in blue water and popping a reg in your mouth you will have three bottles on you. one stage and two deco gases. this means at some point in midwater you will need to move all of these bottles around to get a stage off of your chest and onto a leash and a deco gas moved up to your chest.

also, the gas switching gets much more dangerous with a hypoxic gas on your back and two deco gases

with the other agencies, it's a crap shoot what you will get. with GUE these will be the skills you'll master no matter who you take it from or where i the world you do it
 
three t
First: al80's are only .6lbs more negative than an al40 when full.... you shouldn't lose buoyancy from half a pound, especially on OC. If the bottle is not fully empty/super floaty, it should be very close to neutral which should negate any difference in passing it around.
Second, and arguably more importantly, who says that you have to use an al80 for trimix diving and why you can't for nitrox diving? The last cave trip, if you follow the need for 1.5x gas for deco, I needed an AL80 for decompression and I was only diving to 100ft. Granted it was for 3 hours, but an AL40 is not large enough for what I was doing.
Third: said dives required the use of 2 al80's for bottom stage bottles, and the al80 of O2 for decompression. 3 bottles to move around, and since I was in a cave that has a restriction to the entrance after the deco room, the bottles had to stay in place. From there, they get moved to my butt rails and chill out, but all of the bottle handling is there.

Had that been conducted like a "full trimix dive" or actually been one in a similar profile cave, one of those bottles would/could have been a bottom stage, another would have been my travel gas/deep deco, so either EAN32, 35/25, 50/50 or whatever you choose, and the other would have been O2. Bottom stage handling doesn't change, and you drop off O2 in the deco room, travel mix could have been EAN40 because of the cave profile so would have been dropped off at the tie in point at 80 ish ft. Return of dive would have you pick up and verify etc etc the deep deco mix and switch off of back gas for the first deco stops. Up through the restriction and into the deco room, you conduct a normal gas switch procedure onto backgas *assuming bottom mix is not hypoxic at that depth* and done a gas switch to the O2 bottle. If diving a wicked hypoxic mix like 10/70 or something, you may want to leave the travel gas up front for air breaks instead of switching over to 10/70 because of ICD and the fact that it's borderline for PO2 though I'm not sure how GUE teaches that since they want all bottles on the left, which are the things you want an instructor for.

The dive itself wouldn't really have been any different from a bottle switching standpoint, the only difference would have been the use of a deep deco bottle/travel gas.

So it really all depends on the dive profiles you are currently doing and the ones you want to do. For me to go from 3+hr long nitrox dives at 100ft with multiple stages and then go over to full trimix, there are no new skills. I'm already doing multiple stage handling, so the only difference is the addition of He to the gas planning and dive planning *from both a physiological and logistics standpoint*.
If however you are coming from a training background where the only "extra" bottle you are carrying is a 30 or 40 of O2, then yeah, the learning curve is going to be steep because bottle handling isn't something you are familiar with, especially in OW where you aren't staging that deco bottle and aren't used to moving it around.

some good videos from ISE on how they teach multi stage handling.
they dont....

that is not a gue standard gas
 
12/70 sorry, type-o.

do you switch back to 12/70 for air breaks especially at the 10ft stop?

12% is not covered in tech 2
for me, i'd PROBABLY break to my deepest deco gas. in a cave with a gas like that i'd have a 190 bottle lying around. in the ocean the exposure would be insanely short (20-30 minutes probaby) so i wouldn't be too concerned about cns

also i'm not doing 10' stops
 
"I
So it really all depends on the dive profiles you are currently doing and the ones you want to do. For me to go from 3+hr long nitrox dives at 100ft with multiple stages and then go over to full trimix, there are no new skills.
I'd love to pop you into a Tech 2 course with Gideon and just be a fly on the wall.

And "I don't believe in normoxic trimix"? Wtf does that even mean? You don't "believe" in getting experience on deep dives before putting a gas on your back that might make you fall asleep?
 
12/70 sorry, type-o.

do you switch back to 12/70 for air breaks especially at the 10ft stop?
Why do a gas break at 10ft at all? Your po2 is low enough to not need one.

Yeah nothing to learn for TBone....
 
"I

I'd love to pop you into a Tech 2 course with Gideon and just be a fly on the wall.

And "I don't believe in normoxic trimix"? Wtf does that even mean? You don't "believe" in getting experience on deep dives before putting a gas on your back that might make you fall asleep?

i don't believe in the normoxic course the way it has been structured outside of GUE. GUE makes normoxic a meaningful course by teaching you a whole bunch of things that are relevant. Note that I said that I would like to see AN/DP combined with Helitrox/normoxic from TDI which at least on paper would put it in a comparable course outline to Tech 1. That makes sense. My issue with Normoxic is that it's a standalone class that has to be taken after AN/DP and has an emphasis on depth as opposed to narcosis management. GUE has reasonable standards that I agree with for their course break downs, I've always believed that they make much more sense than the other agencies.

Why do a gas break at 10ft at all? Your po2 is low enough to not need one.

Yeah nothing to learn for TBone....

who said it's for CNS? I don't take air breaks for CNS, I take them based on the studies of breathing 100% O2 and that acting as a vasoconstrictor impeding offgassing
 
i don't believe in the normoxic course the way it has been structured outside of GUE. GUE makes normoxic a meaningful course by teaching you a whole bunch of things that are relevant. Note that I said that I would like to see AN/DP combined with Helitrox/normoxic from TDI which at least on paper would put it in a comparable course outline to Tech 1. That makes sense. My issue with Normoxic is that it's a standalone class that has to be taken after AN/DP and has an emphasis on depth as opposed to narcosis management. GUE has reasonable standards that I agree with for their course break downs, I've always believed that they make much more sense than the other agencies.



who said it's for CNS? I don't take air breaks for CNS, I take them based on the studies of breathing 100% O2 and that acting as a vasoconstrictor impeding offgassing
I didn't say it was for CNS. I said the po2 is low enough to not need one.

And like Litehedded says, 10ft is a transitory depth. You're on the way up anyways.
 
My iantd normoxic course was good. I've never taken advance nitrox and deco procedures so I dunno about that.
 
I didn't say it was for CNS. I said the po2 is low enough to not need one.

And like Litehedded says, 10ft is a transitory depth. You're on the way up anyways.

PO2 doesnt cause vasoconstriction, FiO2 does, you're still on 100%. 10ft may not be a transitory depth if you are trying to get the PO2 down, many of us prefer a 10ft final stop depth and do at least half of our O2 stops up there, but either way, was just curious what you guys did for air breaks when the mixes were that rich with helium from both an ICD standpoint as well as a pO2 standpoint.

on the normoxic issue.
read up on the GUE S&P and while my bias here is for cave diving, I think they have it right aside from the time limits for decompression which is confusing to me. Take Cave 2 so you can do deco dives, then Tech 1 for narcosis management if you're going below 100ft, then Tech 2 which is equivalent to TDI advanced trimix and IANTD's trimix diver with a depth limit of 300ft with introduction of big helium mixes for depth advantages vs narcosis management and multiple bottle handling.

My point still stands, I don't agree or believe in "normoxic trimix", "tdi trimix diver" whatever you want to call it because I don't think the step is big enough to warrant a separation between what they call normoxic and the ART/helitrox course. I much prefer GUE's approach to it as a two step with the introduction of helium to what is essentially the an/dp class for open water.

If you don't trust your students to limit themselves to progressive penetration by experience, then why are you certifying them in the first place? With TDI's normoxic you've basically given them all of the skills, so why should they have to come back just so you can make sure they know how to use a travel gas and a second deco bottle? What is the justification? From reading the GUE S&P you guys are actually teaching meaningful and new skills in each of the courses, I don't see that from the other agencies, so no, I don't believe in normoxic trimix as a course.

I do have a couple genuine questions for you @PfcAJ . Litehedded said that 12/70 isn't taught in Tech 2, so what gas are you using to get to 250ft or was that not accurate? The other is the time limits for Tech 1 and Tech 2. How do those apply for cave diving assuming you have Cave 2 or Cave 3 certs where there isn't a minute limitation for decompression? I don't think I'd be able to do any cave dives at the Cave 3/Tech 1 level and limit the dive to 30 minutes of decompression, heck the Cave 2/Tech1 limits would be very difficult, and a 60 minute limit at Cave3/Tech 2 combined level would be essentially impossible.
 
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