What Experience Level for no-mount / Very Tight Caves?

[Marie13]

I did my first no mount dive about 20 dives after getting full cave. You'll know when you're ready. If you have any question, its not for you.
The cave we 'dive' in is actually pictured in the TDI manual, lol.

Its 100% different that cave diving. No BC, no bouyancy to control, no fins, no jumps/arrows(usually) but still need to know how to get out if all hell breaks loose.
My first dive was all of 10min, 2nd one was closer to 20min. Now I'm doing EOL runs of 60min+

Geez, you tease. Couldn’t be bothered to post the infamous video of Castle Rock?

This is the no-mount cave he and a few other WI locals dive. I won’t go anywhere near this one. The first restriction is called the Cheese Grater.

 

[rjack321]

Maybe.

Yeah exactly, I'm sure Agnes considered herself more than ready and she perished alone in a tiny place

 

[boulderjohn]

Yeah exactly, I'm sure Agnes considered herself more than ready and she perished alone in a tiny place

The image of what things must have looked like for her when she died was exactly what was in my head when I wrote that.

No matter how good a diver you are, some dives are beyond your ability. As you progress in skills, it can become harder and harder to maintain the balance of objectivity, humility, and patience needed to make appropriate decisions.

 

[mdwalter]

I am full cave certified but I am by no means a cave diver. I started with dry caves and I've been in some uncomfortably tight spots. There would have to be a damn good reason for me to really squeeze through something underwater with my current amount of cave diving experience.

I suggest doing some dry caves with tight squeezes to see how you feel wedged in a hole where you can't turn your head, you're going to get hung up, you might come out bleeding, and you might have to take a couple runs at it in different orientations to make it through. While you're wedged in that hole honestly ask yourself how you would feel if you were underwater.

You'll know when or if you're ready.

I've honestly felt more trapped and uncomfortable in tight crawls in dry caves than I ever have in tight crawls under water. I think it's gravity. In the dry cave crawls I feel I'm limited in the ways I can turn to slither through, while under water I have more dgrees of freedom in twisting and turning to get through. For example, in a dry crawl I have to deal with situations that may require placing my full body weight on a pointy rock in the floor that's poking me in the ribs. If that same passage were submerged, I could literally swim through it by just arching my back or maybe doing a half barrel roll. Likewise I have often thought that it's harder to push or pull my Swaygo pack with me than to stick a pair of side mount tanks out in front of me and swim or pull through.

That said, I'm about to do my first actual sump dive in a (mostly) dry cave on Monday. This will be what I'm told is only about a 10 foot crawl through a sump that's only about 3 or 4 feet deep right now. The last time anyone went through was 40 years ago, when there was a drought and the passage was not completely sumped, so the detail is sketchy at best. But based on the shallowness and shortness of the passage, I think this will be a great chance for me to make the transition from cave diver and dry caver to sump diver on a fairly simple mission. The approach is from a concrete sidewalk only a short distance into a show cave, so there is no real caving involved in getting ourselves and our gear to the sump. The down side to this is the concrete path is very close to the opening in the sump, so we will have to crawl through the railing into a space only the size of one human body in the water before going in the hole. This may be the only part of the route that makes this a no mount dive. But nonetheless, I plan to no mount the whole thing on 2 LP45s. My buddy says he's doing it on a single AL40, but the lack of redundancy makes me nervous. I feel I would be safer if prepared for the remote possibility that I get stuck in that 10 ft crawl under water and have a problem with the reg. The single tank is enough air to give me easily 90 minutes to get unstuck, but if I have a reg failure I'll need to get out either forward or back in under a minute.

 

[Robert H. Diver]

I've honestly felt more trapped and uncomfortable in tight crawls in dry caves than I ever have in tight crawls under water. I think it's gravity. In the dry cave crawls I feel I'm limited in the ways I can turn to slither through, while under water I have more dgrees of freedom in twisting and turning to get through. For example, in a dry crawl I have to deal with situations that may require placing my full body weight on a pointy rock in the floor that's poking me in the ribs. If that same passage were submerged, I could literally swim through it by just arching my back or maybe doing a half barrel roll. Likewise I have often thought that it's harder to push or pull my Swaygo pack with me than to stick a pair of side mount tanks out in front of me and swim or pull through.

That said, I'm about to do my first actual sump dive in a (mostly) dry cave on Monday. This will be what I'm told is only about a 10 foot crawl through a sump that's only about 3 or 4 feet deep right now. The last time anyone went through was 40 years ago, when there was a drought and the passage was not completely sumped, so the detail is sketchy at best. But based on the shallowness and shortness of the passage, I think this will be a great chance for me to make the transition from cave diver and dry caver to sump diver on a fairly simple mission. The approach is from a concrete sidewalk only a short distance into a show cave, so there is no real caving involved in getting ourselves and our gear to the sump. The down side to this is the concrete path is very close to the opening in the sump, so we will have to crawl through the railing into a space only the size of one human body in the water before going in the hole. This may be the only part of the route that makes this a no mount dive. But nonetheless, I plan to no mount the whole thing on 2 LP45s. My buddy says he's doing it on a single AL40, but the lack of redundancy makes me nervous. I feel I would be safer if prepared for the remote possibility that I get stuck in that 10 ft crawl under water and have a problem with the reg. The single tank is enough air to give me easily 90 minutes to get unstuck, but if I have a reg failure I'll need to get out either forward or back in under a minute.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[lostsheep]

I've honestly felt more trapped and uncomfortable in tight crawls in dry caves than I ever have in tight crawls under water. I think it's gravity. In the dry cave crawls I feel I'm limited in the ways I can turn to slither through, while under water I have more dgrees of freedom in twisting and turning to get through. For example, in a dry crawl I have to deal with situations that may require placing my full body weight on a pointy rock in the floor that's poking me in the ribs. If that same passage were submerged, I could literally swim through it by just arching my back or maybe doing a half barrel roll. Likewise I have often thought that it's harder to push or pull my Swaygo pack with me than to stick a pair of side mount tanks out in front of me and swim or pull through.

That said, I'm about to do my first actual sump dive in a (mostly) dry cave on Monday. This will be what I'm told is only about a 10 foot crawl through a sump that's only about 3 or 4 feet deep right now. The last time anyone went through was 40 years ago, when there was a drought and the passage was not completely sumped, so the detail is sketchy at best. But based on the shallowness and shortness of the passage, I think this will be a great chance for me to make the transition from cave diver and dry caver to sump diver on a fairly simple mission. The approach is from a concrete sidewalk only a short distance into a show cave, so there is no real caving involved in getting ourselves and our gear to the sump. The down side to this is the concrete path is very close to the opening in the sump, so we will have to crawl through the railing into a space only the size of one human body in the water before going in the hole. This may be the only part of the route that makes this a no mount dive. But nonetheless, I plan to no mount the whole thing on 2 LP45s. My buddy says he's doing it on a single AL40, but the lack of redundancy makes me nervous. I feel I would be safer if prepared for the remote possibility that I get stuck in that 10 ft crawl under water and have a problem with the reg. The single tank is enough air to give me easily 90 minutes to get unstuck, but if I have a reg failure I'll need to get out either forward or back in under a minute.

Sounds like you have dry caving experience so don't read this and think I am against your plan.

What you described doesn’t sound that bad and I’d probably go for it. OP asked about “really tight caves.” What you describe is not what I’m talking about.

I don’t think passing a short restriction inside a show cave counts. Being close to help is radically different than hiking out into the sticks and dropping into a random hole or squeezing through a tight spot a long ways into a flooded cave.

No one is coming for hours or days in a remote dry cave and no one is coming in time in a flooded cave.

Before I started cave diving one of my dive buddies, who was a certified cave diver, made the claim that cave diving squeezes were easier than dry caves, he had zero dry caving experience. We took this guy to a local cave with several tight squeezes that we were used to just to F*^k with him. He FAILED miserably to deal with our dry squeezes. He didn't make it past the first one and is now singing a different tune.

Tight squeezes mess with everyone's head, my own included. It takes experience to get over it. I would rather have that initial experience in a dry cave where time is not a factor and I strongly recommend everyone else considering this stuff to do the same.

 

[lostsheep]

Here's a squeeze that I don't actually think is that tight; could you push sidemount tanks though this? Maybe but it would be close. I've been through way worse but don't have pics on standby. I have to take my helmet off to fit, I have to go through on my side, and my chest and back rub a lot.

ETA: this is the corkscrew in IXL aka Hellhole

 

[happy-diver]

No matter how good a diver you are, some dives are beyond your ability. As you progress in skills, it can become harder and harder to maintain the balance of objectivity, humility, and patience needed to make appropriate decisions.

Pure genius

It's almost 12 years, drove past the spot this week

 

[SCUBAwithMitch]

You may, or may not know when you are ready, but you will ABSOLUTELY know the exact second you realize you aren't. Plan accordingly.

 

[tbone1004]

@mdwalter sumps like that are arguably one of the few really good uses for h-valves

@lostsheep you would probably only have to push one tank to get through that but pushing both of them is easy. If a body will get through then the tanks usually will as long as they aren't too long which is where they can get hung up going around a corner.