What do you consider the role & limitations of a mentor?

[rjack321]

3/ The two of them have decided that they are not doing a training dive, but just going for a bimble together as a couple of mates.

Now let's say something goes wrong and the deco diver is injured. The instructor is now duty bound to file an accident / incident report with HQ and the insurance company...

Where did this duty to report come from? They agreed to go as 2 buddies, not in an instructor-student capacity. There was no money exchanged, no course paperwork filed, no liability waivers signed for 2 buddies to dive together. Do agencies require disclosure of <any> accident an instructor may witness or be even peripherally involved in regardless of whether it was a class dive or a personal dive?

At least down here in the States, "duty" has very specific legal meaning and it cannot be foisted on someone after the fact.

 

[rjack321]

* Can they give advice that an instructor typically gives (sometimes in direct conflict)?

How would a non-instructor be expected to know what is "typically" given by instructors which may very well vary dramatically by instructor, agency, and cert level being taught? I can guarantee that I have given advice in direct contradiction to what some instructors/agencies teach. Since what is taught is continually changing and all over the map, I bet everyone has at some point in time.

 

[sea2summit]

Early in my diving I had a great mentor (who happened to also take most of my money for instruction) that I dove with a lot and I learned more stuff out of class classroom than in it from diving with/watching him. I'd say the foundation of that mentor laid still pays huge dividends in other training I recieve and in the dives I do.

I also tend to try not to dive with people that are not better than I am. I guess I expect mentorship from all my dive buddies still.

To the questions I think it's a very gray area that depends on lots of stuff and like I say: "There are a lot of full cave divers out there that aren't." Could probably say that about some the other way but it's still better go get the card then follow the mentor.

 

[Doppler]

Where did this duty to report come from? They agreed to go as 2 buddies, not in an instructor-student capacity. There was no money exchanged, no course paperwork filed, no liability waivers signed for 2 buddies to dive together. Do agencies require disclosure of <any> accident an instructor may witness or be even peripherally involved in regardless of whether it was a class dive or a personal dive?

At least down here in the States, "duty" has very specific legal meaning and it cannot be foisted on someone after the fact.

Afraid the "duty" to report an incident -- witnessed, as part of a class, as a participant outside a class -- is there at least for our instructors (in the US or anywhere). Driven by North American sensibilities, the watchwords seems to be "Fiduciary Duty" or obligation.

 

[Doppler]

How would a non-instructor be expected to know what is "typically" given by instructors which may very well vary dramatically by instructor, agency, and cert level being taught? I can guarantee that I have given advice in direct contradiction to what some instructors/agencies teach. Since what is taught is continually changing and all over the map, I bet everyone has at some point in time.

I took this statement from the OP in the broadest sense; and was quoting the original and have no idea how to provide an answer to the first part. Regarding the second: My guess is that we have all given advice that contradicts advice previously given by instructors, the internet and others. I frequently do I am sure... I run workshops, give talks and seminars, write articles, write textbooks, and a lot of that stuff contradicts the teachings of others... and of course things change... to quote Bertrand Russell (a very clever Welshman) &#8220;The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.&#8221;

But I think you are missing the point. My post was directed at the OP and explaining why he may not get a very complete answer.

 

[jjones9527]

I was involved in the body recovery of a diver who died on his way to the Kinghorn a few years ago. We had seen the divers before their dive, and one died behind us on the way to the wreck. As a recreational instructor I notified my agency of my actions. I was told it was prudent, but not necessary, as I wasn't in a professional role at the time. I'm sure each agency, and country has their own guidelines.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I haven't had a chance to read all the responses yet, so forgive me if this has already been posted.

As an instructor who also mentors, there are some considerations that must be taken into account. Agency standards dictate what we can do and even if we are not instructing we need to follow those. Some agencies allow instructors to take a diver one level above their current level of training if we are an instructor at that level, but standards apply such as ratios, visibility, etc. I will also not do this with someone I am not familiar with. In fact, I have only done this with some previous students. I also have my mentorees sign waivers as if they were in a course.

My reason for mentoring is to provide newer divers with an opportunity to learn something new and gain more experience. Courses are stressful and a student only learns so much. A mentoring dive allows a diver to learn more with less stress. This is one of the reasons I allow divers into my courses if I haven't met ratios yet.

I have also started doing mentorships days every couple/few months so divers can just come out and dive without paying an instructor fee. This isn't a class and won't result in a card, but hopefully it results in expanded knowledge and experience.

Edit - a little more now that I have read the thread.

I do not put my buddies or students into a trust me dive situation ever. But my definition of a trust me dive may be different. i consider a trust me div e as one in which a diver has to rely on someone else to get them to the surface alive. I teach my students how to do that on their own before we ever enter the overhead. Divers have died of heart attacks, strokes, and other things while under water. While I'm pretty healthy and have a physical done on a regular basis, what happens if I don't survive a dive?? I don't have a co-pilot to take over. My students have to know how to get out on their own, and I make sure I teach them this before we go in the overhead. I make sure they have the knowledge before the dive. They also have the right to call any dive at any time.

As for mentors v. instructors, the benefit some instructors have is exposure to several other instructors in preparation for their instructor status. This isn't true in all cases. Some instructors have only been exposed to one IT. My experience has exposed me to 9 different cave instructors so far. I don't necessarily agree with all of their teaching styles, but I have had the opportunity to experience it and choose what I think works the best. I think the same goes for non-instructor mentors. the more exposure to other divers, the more they can pass on.

I think instructor mentors are probably a little safer in that they do have agencies to answer to and so the information they pass on will at the very least be approved by a board of peers...hopefully. There is information I don't necessarily agree with in the student manuals. I still teach it, but I also talk about my issues with it and why I have issues. I then let me students/mentorees choose.

My advice is to get all the mentorship you want. Just be careful who you choose. I'm sure ev en Papa Bear has a mentoree or two out there ready to kneel on the cave floors in Mexico...

 

[netmage]

Don't the standards of some agencies allow an instructor to take someone on a dive one level higher than their current cert as sort of a "discovery dive?"

i.e. an Intro diver could be taken on a jump, or an OW diver could be taken in a cavern?

How else would training get done.....?

I (and many lawyers likely) make no distinction between a formal class, and the implied duty of care of an "professional' instructor level buddy.....

As to the OP... its all about baby steps and incremental learning through experience.