What do you consider the role & limitations of a mentor?
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Hah got that silly thing beat by a mile, woo ra!
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Well, you come out of a class with the information you got in it, some of which is pretty well cemented and some of which is still pretty nebulous. You may have some skills down, and a toehold on others. You saw whatever you saw during the class.
To me, a mentor is someone with solid experience with whom you can dive, as you put the skills and information to use. They're there to provide feedback and pass along the many small tips that make life easier, for which there just isn't time in a few days of class. They're there as a visual model sometimes, so you can pick up ideas on how to make things smoother or faster. They're someone of whom you can ask questions, when you can't put your finger on a piece of information that's been misplaced since class. They may be able to show you how to get somewhere you wouldn't otherwise find (unmarked jumps, for example). And over all, they're a solid, steady presence to provide a bit of confidence if you're just a mite bit tentative at some point.
Past a certain point, I suspect it works just as well to learn things from a good mentor as it does to take another class. I watched someone I know learning cave scootering by that method, and it seemed to work fine. It appeared to be fun for the person passing the information along, and the person receiving it. Clearly, this was someone already having a lot of skill and training, just expanding his horizons a bit in a particular direction, which is probably one of the best uses of a mentor.
Could you learn to cave or tech dive just from mentoring? Undoubtedly, but someone doing that wouldn't know his shortcomings as a teacher and what he might be failing to evaluate or to pass along. At some point, the student becomes a pretty shrewd judge of what he needs to know, and that's the point where mentoring is as good as class, to me.
To me, a mentor is someone with solid experience with whom you can dive, as you put the skills and information to use. They're there to provide feedback and pass along the many small tips that make life easier, for which there just isn't time in a few days of class. They're there as a visual model sometimes, so you can pick up ideas on how to make things smoother or faster. They're someone of whom you can ask questions, when you can't put your finger on a piece of information that's been misplaced since class. They may be able to show you how to get somewhere you wouldn't otherwise find (unmarked jumps, for example). And over all, they're a solid, steady presence to provide a bit of confidence if you're just a mite bit tentative at some point.
Past a certain point, I suspect it works just as well to learn things from a good mentor as it does to take another class. I watched someone I know learning cave scootering by that method, and it seemed to work fine. It appeared to be fun for the person passing the information along, and the person receiving it. Clearly, this was someone already having a lot of skill and training, just expanding his horizons a bit in a particular direction, which is probably one of the best uses of a mentor.
Could you learn to cave or tech dive just from mentoring? Undoubtedly, but someone doing that wouldn't know his shortcomings as a teacher and what he might be failing to evaluate or to pass along. At some point, the student becomes a pretty shrewd judge of what he needs to know, and that's the point where mentoring is as good as class, to me.
I had a great time with a mentor, he is now a regular (almost exclusive) buddy of mine. Did I do 'trust me dives'? Hell, yes, did I learn a lot from him and through diving? Absolutely. Did we have some very hairy situations? F@K yes! Was I ever in a situation where I did not know what was going on? NO!
And I would do it all over again. Yes. But this is me. I plan things, assess where it needs to go and then with my buddy execute. There is a level of trust and comfort that is needed. This can only grow over a number of dives. Not something an 'out of the box' mentor can or should do.
And I would do it all over again. Yes. But this is me. I plan things, assess where it needs to go and then with my buddy execute. There is a level of trust and comfort that is needed. This can only grow over a number of dives. Not something an 'out of the box' mentor can or should do.
SuPrBuGmAn
Contributor
The role of the mentor will vary depending on the mentor's skill, the buddy, the site, their relationship as dive buddies(ie, how comfortable they dive together), the dive itself, and what they had for breakfast.
Limitations of the mentor? Well... They may or may not be able to provide a card. Heh. I think there are alot of variables here as well. Alot of the same as above, depending on the mentor(including how liable he wants to be if he can't control a more advanced situation if this is pushing limits a bit), the diver, the site, how they dive together, and what time the local eatery closes.
Like others have stated, sometimes the buddy has the skills and aptitude to increase his experience and knowledge despite the limits on his certification. Obviously the mentor would want to control(as much so as anyone can control) the situation and dive(including the planning beforehand) in a way that they can proceed safely. This control is just as much the responsibility of the buddy as well though...
Depending on the diver, all the above could be perfectly fine IMO.
I didn't break gas rules at intro level... instead I took jumps(couple circuits too). I never felt I was diving beyond my capability and always did those types of dives with more experienced divers... I even think it helped me in Apprentice and Full Cave. I also spent alot of time from Cavern through Apprentice diving off the beaten path, with some nasty tunnels and some passages that would pinch down quicker than I'd like. Sometimes it just meant to turn the dive early or not make it at all, I think I had enough sense to do this when appropriate. These sites have definately made me a better diver just do to the poor conditions and unclean caves not being so pampering. Friggin beautiful too.
Then again... I think certain caverns or OK for OW divers. Vortex(not the cave), Morrison, Cypress, Ginnie, Devils Den, Blue Grotto, Alexander(to an extent) are fine for a competant diver with a good head on their shoulders and a good comfort level. Definatley not OK for all of them... Not all(infact very few) caverns fall under that veil and no caves do... Sure people have died in all of them... but people die everywhere.
My honest opinion
I know lots will disagree.
Limitations of the mentor? Well... They may or may not be able to provide a card. Heh. I think there are alot of variables here as well. Alot of the same as above, depending on the mentor(including how liable he wants to be if he can't control a more advanced situation if this is pushing limits a bit), the diver, the site, how they dive together, and what time the local eatery closes.
Like others have stated, sometimes the buddy has the skills and aptitude to increase his experience and knowledge despite the limits on his certification. Obviously the mentor would want to control(as much so as anyone can control) the situation and dive(including the planning beforehand) in a way that they can proceed safely. This control is just as much the responsibility of the buddy as well though...
What do you consider the limitations of a mentor?
- Is it OK to take a basic cave diver down a well known jump?Possibly
- Is it OK to take a full cave diver scootering?Possibly
- Can they give advice that an instructor typically gives (sometimes in direct conflict)?Sure
- Is it OK to take a adv nitrox/deco diver on a 150ft trimix dive after explaining step by step the planning process?Who's buying the gas?
Won't be me, but I'm weird about different gasses and the deco involved with them...
Depending on the diver, all the above could be perfectly fine IMO.
I didn't break gas rules at intro level... instead I took jumps(couple circuits too). I never felt I was diving beyond my capability and always did those types of dives with more experienced divers... I even think it helped me in Apprentice and Full Cave. I also spent alot of time from Cavern through Apprentice diving off the beaten path, with some nasty tunnels and some passages that would pinch down quicker than I'd like. Sometimes it just meant to turn the dive early or not make it at all, I think I had enough sense to do this when appropriate. These sites have definately made me a better diver just do to the poor conditions and unclean caves not being so pampering. Friggin beautiful too.
Then again... I think certain caverns or OK for OW divers. Vortex(not the cave), Morrison, Cypress, Ginnie, Devils Den, Blue Grotto, Alexander(to an extent) are fine for a competant diver with a good head on their shoulders and a good comfort level. Definatley not OK for all of them... Not all(infact very few) caverns fall under that veil and no caves do... Sure people have died in all of them... but people die everywhere.
My honest opinion
I know lots will disagree.
In a public forum, providing answers that do not conform to agency standards EXACTLY and to the letter would be ill-advised, specifically with regards to
* Is it OK to take a basic cave diver down a well known jump?
* Is it OK to take a full cave diver scootering?
* Can they give advice that an instructor typically gives (sometimes in direct conflict)?
* Is it OK to take a adv nitrox/deco diver on a 150ft trimix dive after explaining step by step the planning process?
OP
ucfdiver
Contributor
BabyDuck
Contributor
yes. dunno what the specifics are, but yes.
mentorship is hard to define, but i know how grateful i am to mine.
mentorship is hard to define, but i know how grateful i am to mine.
Cannot speak for any other agency but TDI does not have much in the way of "try dives" in the context of the original questions. Therefore, an instructor taking someone on a dive "one level higher" than their certifications outside the sanction of a structured training dive seems to me to be opening the gate to all sorts of potential grief.
+++++++++ WHAT FOLLOWS IS MORE MENTORSHIP
Using an example from the OP's original list: Taking a deco graduate on a 45 metre trimix dive after explaining the "step by step planning procedures."
Explaining step by step procedures makes it a training dive doesn't it? So we are describing a course, no?
OK Devils Advocate: Let's make a few assumptions: 1/ Instructor is a certified and active trimix instructor 2/ Diver has experience running staged decompression dives to 45 metres 3/ The two of them have decided that they are not doing a training dive, but just going for a bimble together as a couple of mates.
Now let's say something goes wrong and the deco diver is injured. The instructor is now duty bound to file an accident / incident report with HQ and the insurance company... guess what happens next.
OK, now let's say nothing goes wrong. The diver walks away saying to herself: "****, that was easy, I'll have to try that again next weekend." Next weekend, or the weekend after or at somepoint in the near future pushing limits or not, something happens, she gets hurt and in the investigation that follows... well, you get the picture. Sort of like taking an open water diver in a cave just to show them what it's like.
Alright. One other scenario for those of you in the business of diver education: deco diver starts racking up trimix dives and does not get hurt... ever.
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