What defines a "cave"?

[Cave Diver]

I train OW students "expecting" them to go into overheads and deep very soon after becoming certified divers; because that is what I see brand new OW divers doing, every day of the year.

Are you "expecting" them go go into overheads because you take them on guided dives as soon as they're certified as mentioned below?

Secondly; every dive operator I have worked for as an instructor/guide in Hawaii has "sold" guided dives into caverns and lava tubes for "certified" divers. That is nearly 10 years of guiding brand new OW divers into overhead environments with absolutely no training beyond OW class

I'm curious as to what you tell them? That it's ok, because it's a lava tube? That it's ok because you've taken hundreds of divers on the same tour? Do you provide any sort of warning or education about overhead environments, gas planning, etc?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I am curious as to your teaching methodology in which you train OW students with the expectation that they will go into overheads very soon after becoming certified divers.

The "expectation" that most divers will dive beyond their training, soon, is my motivational mantra. I'm of the opinion that I better teach them well, to make sure those OW certified divers can make the deep and overhead dives they will likely make before they should.

 

[copter53]

Halemano got it right.

Let your kid know about cigarettes from you instead letting of his/her first exposure be from the cool kids at school.

Same situation.

An instructor who tells his students about caves and explains the situation with a fair warning is just doing his "due diligence". It is better then him not even mentioning it and having some duck footed diver tell the students about an awesome cave he went into b4 they even get their cert cards in the mail. Does every OW diver get to see the opening of a cave/be tempted to go inside? I would bet my left nut thats a yes.

 

[JCAT]

Does every OW diver get to see the opening of a cave/be tempted to go inside? I would bet my left nut thats a yes.

I would not make that bet, but it's up to you of course.

All the courses I've been in or witnessed stress the dangers of entering overhead environments.

Some new divers are indeed tempted, while others are not simply because a cave holds no fascination for them. Divers come in all shapes.

I agree that training agencies need to do a much better job in teaching the dangers of cave diving without competent instruction and where/who that instruction can be acquired.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Are you "expecting" them go go into overheads because you take them on guided dives as soon as they're certified as mentioned below?

Most of my students last year chose to get certified with one of the companies that dives Lanai, because of the cavern dive the students want to make on dive 5. Other people chose to get certified with one of the the companies that will take them on a drift of Molokini's Backside for dive 5. Sometimes dive 5 is the 85' deck Carthaginian wreck.

I'm curious as to what you tell them? That it's ok, because it's a lava tube? That it's ok because you've taken hundreds of divers on the same tour? Do you provide any sort of warning or education about overhead environments, gas planning, etc?

The guided downhill bike rides on Mount Haleakala kill people. The glider tours and helicoptor tours and tandem skydiving and just plain walking down mountain streams or snorkeling at Black Rock; people die doing those adventures in Hawaii, and no body is too surprised.

People don't die doing Hawaii lava tube scuba tours, and some people may be surprised. There is a briefing; silting is discussed, but Hawaii sand is not usually silty. Gas management is unchanged for the most part; It is rare to spend more than a third of the dive in the overhead environs, there is more life to be found out on the reef. Get in, get it over with, get out on the reef.

The guest does not need a light on these dives, but they will see more if they do bring one; most operators don't rent lights for day dives. There are some divers who chose not to go in; just follow the bubbles to the other side.

I'd rather my new OW divers go on their first dives beyond their training with me; kind of like more training dives.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Does every OW diver get to see the opening of a cave/be tempted to go inside? I would bet my left nut thats a yes.

I wouldn't take that bet ... even though I know I would win. I know many certified divers who have no desire to see the inside of a cave ... but I really don't want your left nut ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Halemano got it right.

Let your kid know about cigarettes from you instead letting of his/her first exposure be from the cool kids at school.

I don't necessarily think these two things follow. I mean, I was told in OW class that it was "open water" and that that meant no overheads. I think the instructor of that class would equate more to "the parent" than to "the cool kids at school."

So what I'm saying is that I was informed of it ahead of time, by the instructor, and so (since I didn't go diving before being certified) I didn't hear it first from "the cool kids." By the time I was diving and saw overheads I already knew they weren't for me as an OW diver - without further training. It was very clear cut in the class.

Maybe some people will still succumb to peer/guide pressure and go into overheads, but you can't totally control people. On the other hand, is that a reason to concede? When I learned to drive, they didn't just assume I would speed and therefore teach me to drive at 100mph. Instead they explained why speeding would be dangerous and that we shouldn't do it.

I can see where it would be tough if "all" the dive boats and "all" the DM's locally are taking brand new OW divers into overhead environments in your area.

Does every OW diver get to see the opening of a cave/be tempted to go inside? I would bet my left nut thats a yes.

I would say no. At least not every OW diver since I'm one. I think caverns look really interesting, and I love swimming through stuff, but I know that caves aren't something I should be doing as an Open Water diver, as they are not open water. I suppose that makes me sound like a goody two-shoes, but... it was explained that overheads require more training, and why. Good enough for me.

I took a wreck specialty class, and even then, when that was somewhat the point of the class, and we were with an instructor, some of the long swim-throughs made me nervous. I mean, they were fun and really neat, and I wasn't nervous as in physically uncomfortable - from that aspect I enjoyed them. But I was not confident that we would all be able to handle a problem if one had occurred right smack in the middle of one of them (they were long and narrow). I knew the odds were in our favor that no-one's reg or etc. was going to suddenly malfunction *right then* but mentally I was not at all comfortable with just going on luck like that. I won't be making equivalent moves again without more/better/different training.

Blue Sparkle

 

[Dive-aholic]

Halemano got it right.

Let your kid know about cigarettes from you instead letting of his/her first exposure be from the cool kids at school.

Same situation.

An instructor who tells his students about caves and explains the situation with a fair warning is just doing his "due diligence". It is better then him not even mentioning it and having some duck footed diver tell the students about an awesome cave he went into b4 they even get their cert cards in the mail. Does every OW diver get to see the opening of a cave/be tempted to go inside? I would bet my left nut thats a yes.

That's why I've been showing all my OW students (that includes every non-overhead trained diver) the videos linked in my signature. However, I don't then take them on a cavern tour for the first post certification dive.

 

[iztok]

Most of my students last year chose to get certified with one of the companies that dives Lanai, because of the cavern dive the students want to make on dive 5. Other people chose to get certified with one of the the companies that will take them on a drift of Molokini's Backside for dive 5. Sometimes dive 5 is the 85' deck Carthaginian wreck.

So how do you explain this and rationalize it?

"Dear students, please forget what it was told in class and do this 'trust me dive' as part of the 5th dive." ?????

 

[Cave Diver]

The "expectation" that most divers will dive beyond their training, soon, is my motivational mantra.

Maybe if they were better educated about the hazards and things that can go wrong on dives beyond their training as brand new OW students, they wouldn't be in such a rush to do these dives "soon?"

I'm of the opinion that I better teach them well, to make sure those OW certified divers can make the deep and overhead dives they will likely make before they should.

So you're an overhead environment instructor? If so, why not just have them take that course? If not, how do you "make sure" they can make those types of dives when you don't have specific training yourself?