What defines a "cave"?

[MauiScubaSteve]

So you're an overhead environment instructor? If so, why not just have them take that course? If not, how do you "make sure" they can make those types of dives when you don't have specific training yourself?

It seems to me that we have both participated in similar threads enough for you to know that I have repeatedly recounted that before full cave was a requirement for PADI Cavern Specialty Instructor, I chose not to pay for the PADI Cavern Specialty rating when I qualified. There are PADI Cavern Specialty Instructors with similar cave instruction to me.

I am saying that competent new OW divers are my goal in the OW course, and competent new OW divers should easily be able to enjoy many of Hawaii's lava tube/cavern tours as well as many of the guided deep dives in Hawaii. The dives I'm speaking about are pretty darn easy, have great safety records and have inspired many dive addicts!

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Since nearly every dive boat in Hawaii "only" offers guided diving, and since nearly every guide working those boats is an instructor, perhaps the more new divers "we" take beyond their training the better.

How many brand new OW divers are having things go wrong in caves? How many of those brand new OW divers who had things go wrong in a cave went into that cave because of the "bad example" set by tropical lava tube/cavern tours?

Oahu has some killer caves, at one of the most popular shore dive sites in the entire State of Hawaii. Years ago four "NAVY divers" got lost and ran out of gas; ironically right under the gas station across the highway. That cave is now referred to as the Gas Chamber. Decades of dumb a$$ divers later and there have been no other deaths; even the many non guided new OW divers are surviving lava tube/cavern dives.

*military for sure, many different bases on Oahu back then, one version is NAVY Divers; confirmed as active duty, certified divers.

Wrong, the more divers we have that are TRAINED to do these dives the better. By TRAINED instructors.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

The only thing I see here is a few folks advocating a break in standards that are supposed to be upheld in EVERY training agency when it comes to the BOW certification.

Call it what you like.

You wanna be right? Pay for the instructor rating and teach the appropriate class.

 

[Cave Diver]

It seems to me that we have both participated in similar threads enough for you to know that I have repeatedly recounted that before full cave was a requirement for PADI Cavern Specialty Instructor, I chose not to pay for the PADI Cavern Specialty rating when I qualified. There are PADI Cavern Specialty Instructors with similar cave instruction to me.

Sorry, I don't make it a habit of trying to remember the certification level of every person I participate with in threads. I generally recall if someone is an instructor or not, but with few exceptions I don't remember the specialties they can teach.

So, as I read your statement, you have cavern training, but you are not certified to teach any overhead class.

I'm curious as to whether your liability insurance covers any sort of incident that may occur when leading a diver into an overhead environment?

I am saying that competent new OW divers are my goal in the OW course, and competent new OW divers should easily be able to enjoy many of Hawaii's lava tube/cavern tours as well as many of the guided deep dives in Hawaii. The dives I'm speaking about are pretty darn easy, have great safety records and have inspired many dive addicts!

I won't debate the safety of the lava tubes with you. I just hope your guidance and instruction comes with the caveat that not all overheads are created equal and they deserve a degree of caution and respect regardless of how benign they appear to be.

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

The "expectation" that most divers will dive beyond their training, soon, is my motivational mantra. I'm of the opinion that I better teach them well, to make sure those OW certified divers can make the deep and overhead dives they will likely make before they should.

Actually, I was looking for specifics. How do you 'teach them well?' Specifically what do you say, what do you demonstrate, and what skills / exercises must the students complete so that they meet your performance standards so that they may safely conduct deep dives and dives in overhead environments, after having only just completed your OW course?

 

[BrianKon]

The difference between a cavern and a cave is the presence of ambient light. If there is light it's a cavern if no light it is a cave. Both have special training requirements,

however when on vacation or even doing local diving, many DM's will take OW divers into an overhead environment (ie lave tubes here in Kona, HI.) they have ambient light and most have a 30' access to the surface.

The standard is that local dive operations no matter where they are have a certain standard for the area. For example, in Florida, you may not be permitted to do a deep wreck dive without AOW or Deep Diver training, here in Hawaii, you will not usually do a lava tube until the DM can access your level of diving on the first dive, or you can show a log book of similar types of dive with a professional signature (DM or above)

be sure you know the dive plan before you get into the water. If you do not feel comfortable going into an overhead environment, be sure to know what the plan is.
The safe dive plan says to stay at the entrance(with your buddy) and wait for the DM to come back to get you after all others have exited the cavern or lava tube. the DM can then lead your buddy through and buddy you up with another diver.

DO NOT Cavern or Cave dive without the proper training if doing your own dive with a buddy.

the moral of this...... Live to Dive another day!

Brian

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems to me that we have both participated in similar threads enough for you to know that I have repeatedly recounted that before full cave was a requirement for PADI Cavern Specialty Instructor, I chose not to pay for the PADI Cavern Specialty rating when I qualified. There are PADI Cavern Specialty Instructors with similar cave instruction to me.

I am saying that competent new OW divers are my goal in the OW course, and competent new OW divers should easily be able to enjoy many of Hawaii's lava tube/cavern tours as well as many of the guided deep dives in Hawaii. The dives I'm speaking about are pretty darn easy, have great safety records and have inspired many dive addicts!

Actually, I was looking for specifics. How do you 'teach them well?' Specifically what do you say, what do you demonstrate, and what skills / exercises must the students complete so that they meet your performance standards so that they may safely conduct deep dives and dives in overhead environments, after having only just completed your OW course?

Another thought for Halemano or any instructor leading new divers into overheads ... do you train every diver you lead into such places? And if not, how do you assure that divers you haven't trained meet your standards before taking them into an overhead environment?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[iztok]

Since nearly every dive boat in Hawaii "only" offers guided diving, and since nearly every guide working those boats is an instructor, perhaps the more new divers "we" take beyond their training the better.

Is your agency OK with you taking students to such dives? Or do they not know?

If they don't know why they don't know?

 

[Peter Guy]

Iztok asked a very good series of questions IMHO (I know they were very good because I've been thinking them!). So I went to the PADI Instructor Manual (circa 2009) to see if there WAS any decent definitions/guidelines for what appears to be the norm for Island guided dives. Here is what I found:

Do not conduct open water training dives or Discover Scuba Diving experience dives in caves, caverns, under ice or in any situation where direct vertical access to the surface is not possible. Exceptions include Ice, Cavern or Wreck Diver Specialty courses, and special orientation dives for certified divers.

[Note -- for those who are NOT PADI instructors, the relevance of the "blue" color is that the language is a "standard" while the black color is a "suggestion or comment" and is not found in the "new" Instructor manual.]

So is it OK within PADI standards to be doing what the Island Dive Industry is doing? Well, perhaps these are "special orientation dives for certified divers" and thus OK -- but perhaps they are not. I've been in the Cathedral off of Lanai and it is, in fact, a very benign "overhead" (actually, I didn't, and don't, even consider it an overhead). I've also done swimthroughs of any number of wrecks (Rhone for example) which are also quite benign.

I don't see doing those as a problem -- EXCEPT for the following issues:

a. Giving people a false sense of "It is OK" to go into an overhead (whether it be rock, steel, ice or virtual) because "Hey, I did it in the Islands."

b. Giving people the mixed message of "Do as I say, not as I do" which is NEVER a good thing for an instructor. "Hey, if it really is OK to ignore what I was taught and go into this overhead, then what else was BS and I can blow off?"

I know the Island Dive Industry likes to do these dives because they ARE fun and give the customer a "good experience" which is good for business. I wish the Island Dive Industry did a better job of explaining WHY it was OK to blow off the training recommendations for "X" dive in this particular instance so that the "average vacation diver" wouldn't get the idea that it was, in fact, OK to do this type of diving without further, and appropriate training.

A little personal information about my experience with the Island Dive Industry -- dive number 17, Molokini, 141 feet. On getting back to the boat, I was asked how deep I went -- answer 141 feet -- the response - High Fives from the DM for having the deepest dive!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I know the Island Dive Industry likes to do these dives because they ARE fun and give the customer a "good experience" which is good for business. I wish the Island Dive Industry did a better job of explaining WHY it was OK to blow off the training recommendations for "X" dive in this particular instance so that the "average vacation diver" wouldn't get the idea that it was, in fact, OK to do this type of diving without further, and appropriate training.

So what explanation could they give? That your money means more to them than your safety? That agency standards don't apply to them?

This would be the same Island Dive Industry that thinks it's OK to destroy hundreds of years worth of coral growth in order to capture an octopus for a client to handle?

I left Maui with a pretty "bleh" impression of the attitudes of the dive "professionals" I came into contact with over there. Most don't seem particularly interested in either diver safety or sustaining the diving environment. It's probably the biggest reason I've never gone back.

A little personal information about my experience with the Island Dive Industry -- dive number 17, Molokini, 141 feet. On getting back to the boat, I was asked how deep I went -- answer 141 feet -- the response - High Fives from the DM for having the deepest dive!

THERE's what I'm talkin' about ... so what size tank were you using ... an 80 or a 72?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)